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Old 03-07-2013, 05:24 AM   #151
roger 04 rt OP
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So, this means keep the same Lambda sensor and just ad a bit of wire, connectors, a cheap processor and some new code? No LC1 or other stuff? Now you're on to something.

But, what about those of us who spend a lot of time at 90 MPH in summer heat?
This is one of those changes your bike will appreciate year round but especially in the summer. As you know, the way a pilot of a piston-engine aircraft finds the correct mixture is:

—climb to altitude at full-rich mixture, then level off and stabilize cruise
—reduce fuel flow and lean-out the mixture until the exhaust temperature is HIGHEST. This is about 14.7:1 right where our motorcycles run all the time.
—then for fastest cruise, increase fuel flow until the exhaust temperature drops by 75-100 degrees F
—or, for best economy, reduce fuel flow until the exhaust temperature drops by 75-100 degrees F

Your gas mileage may drop if you run richer mixtures. For each 2 percent you add to fueling, expect a 1% drop in gas mileage (and a 20% increase in fun . But it may not drop at all if you find yourself in a higher gear due to the better running engine, that's been my personal experience at 13.8 to 14.1.
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Old 03-12-2013, 08:10 AM   #152
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Roger and others...

I noticed something interesting on my LC-1 equipped 2001 R1150GS. I have Lambda set at .94 (13.8:1 AFR). As long as I ride below 4000 rpms the engine hovers right around 13.8 on level going and modest uphills. However, above 4000 rpm the AFR goes up to 14.4 on level going while maintaining steady speed. If I increase throttle enough for the engine to pull a little, the AFR drops back to 13.8.

I've ridden several hundred miles, so I wouldn't think the Motronic is still learning. And even if it was, I would expect steady speed on level going to be running in closed loop, which should be 13.8. I've observed the above pattern in gears 1, 2 & 3. I'll need to get on a bigger highway to test it out in the upper gears.

Could it be that the Motronic is designed to lean out the mixture when it thinks the bike is cruising (steady throttle, above 4000 rpms)? I have no way of knowing for certain when the bike is in closed vs. open loop, since the only feedback I'm getting is the AFR gauge.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:02 PM   #153
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Hi Wally,
I've noticed that on my bike, in neutral, Closed Loop stops just above 2000 RPM. Perhaps lighter loads exit CL earlier than I've seen.

This could be a difference between Closed and Open Loop areas for the RT and GS models. I can tell you for sure that my RT remains in Closed Loop up to something like 6000 RPM and at speeds over a hundred miles per hour. I've got lots of plots and data showing the Closed Loop status (GS-911) and AFR (from the LC-1).

Can you connect a PC and get a running log of the data. (I strap my PC to the rear seat). You run with the serial cable connected and a program you got with the LC-1 called Logworks. That will tell us a lot.

If you can, try running the same test with the Pink Coding plug instaleled (30-87-87a) we could figure out whether it is coding plug related, or whether the difference is my MA 2.4; or whether it's something else.
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:06 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by wjg4 View Post
Roger and others...

I noticed something interesting on my LC-1 equipped 2001 R1150GS. I have Lambda set at .94 (13.8:1 AFR). As long as I ride below 4000 rpms the engine hovers right around 13.8 on level going and modest uphills. However, above 4000 rpm the AFR goes up to 14.4 on level going while maintaining steady speed. If I increase throttle enough for the engine to pull a little, the AFR drops back to 13.8.

I've ridden several hundred miles, so I wouldn't think the Motronic is still learning. And even if it was, I would expect steady speed on level going to be running in closed loop, which should be 13.8. I've observed the above pattern in gears 1, 2 & 3. I'll need to get on a bigger highway to test it out in the upper gears.

Could it be that the Motronic is designed to lean out the mixture when it thinks the bike is cruising (steady throttle, above 4000 rpms)? I have no way of knowing for certain when the bike is in closed vs. open loop, since the only feedback I'm getting is the AFR gauge.

Hi Wally, I went out and did some quick datalogging in first, second and third gear. The Motronic does go Open Loop at small TPS angles and RPMs above about 4K--but that's what your numbers 14.4 were saying.

If there is a slight acceleration my mixture at 4500 RPMs got richer than the closed loop target (acceleration enrichment) but with even the slightest deceleration in 3rd gear the mixture got slightly leaner (deceleration enleanment).

This provides a possible model for 4000-rpm-and-above, small-TPS-angle, driveability problems. The Motronic is a) Open Loop; b) in low gears with lots of deceleration/acceleration torque, and c) in some cases not too far from triggering the abruptness of Overrun Fuel Cutoff.

The interesting thing is that with my 13.8:1 Closed Loop AFRs I can see these effects in the data log but I don't experience the effect as a driveability problem. If I cut the mixture to stock 14.7:1 I can start to feel the effect as well as see it in the log.

BTW, since it was connected (testing proto 2 now) I made these runs using the prototype narrowband-shifting device I mentioned a few posts back. So it seems to be doing just as effective a job as the LC-1 (which I still prefer for datalogging).
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Old 03-16-2013, 10:38 AM   #155
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Roger, I was away for a few days but now back home, and as soon as the weather clears I'll get out for more runs and will log data using LogWorks3.

By "small-TPS-angle" do you mean small differences up or down from current speed? My experience was at steady throttle above 4000 rpm on level going the AFR would drop to 14.4, and I experienced just what you describe, as if the Motronic cut off the the fuel completely but then decided not to, all in a split second. Not a big "surge", but detectable. Below 4000 rpm when the AFR is at 13.8 at steady throttle I didn't notice the problem.

I'm relieved to know you observed the same pattern on your RT - it assures me I wasn't just imagining this! Any guesses about why the Motronic is programmed this way?
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:50 PM   #156
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By small TPS angles, I mean in absolute terms. I went back and looked, and in third gear at about 4500 RPMs the throttle is only open about 7.5 degrees, Overrun Cuttoff is only 5 degrees of throttle rotation below that. The other interesting note is that the injector duration is about equal to that at idle, only 2 mS, half of which is dead time.

I also looked through other data for the 3rd gear, 4500 RPM period. It was all open loop. And the injectors pulses started dropping in duration when I dropped the throttle from 8.32 degrees to 7.68 as reported by the motronic leading to injection times dropping from 2.3 mS to 2.18 then to 1.73 mS and the AFR going from slightly rich to slightly lean.
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Old 03-18-2013, 08:03 AM   #157
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I had a chance to get out yesterday afternoon for a brief ride on the Interstate where I could get the bike into the upper gears. In 4th, 5th and 6th above 4000 rpm the AFR never got above 13.8, unlike the lower gears.

Does anyone have an idea why the Motronic apparently goes open loop (AFR 14.4) above 4000 rpm in the lower gears, but not in the upper gears? AFR stays right around 13.8 at steady speed on level going all of the time except above 4000 rpm in 1st, 2nd & 3rd!

I did observe a couple of times at higher rpm in the lower gears yesterday when the AFR dropped down to 13.8, but didn't get enough riding in to be able to replicate the conditons.
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:52 AM   #158
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At 4000 rpm, small throttle angles, the 1150 appears to be open loop. In the higher gears because you're going faster, the engine has to produce more power and your throttle is more open. At higher throttle angles the Motronic applies closed loop control.

I've spoken to the guys at PC and asked them about the chart below which shows where they believe the Motronic is closed and open loop. According to them, it is their understanding of it but they can't say for certain that it is accurate. The dark area is closed loop and the white area is open loop.

Why BMW has designated the various areas open and closed is harder to work out but it is either because closed loop is unreliable at those RPMs and throttle angles, or because they always want either leaner or richer operating conditions that closed loop would allow.

Back when I began this project it was partly because when shifting up in the low gears, I experienced roughness when the engine was warmed up, right at the "top" of the shift. It now appears that this is an area of leaner open loop

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Old 03-25-2013, 11:27 AM   #159
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As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've been experimenting with some options for shifting lambda. A fully programmable, accurate solution, with the ability to datalog, is a Wideband O2 Sensor with a Wideband Controller like the Innovate Motorsports LC-1. (As a note, there are other manufacturers of this kind of product: Zeitronix, PLX, & wbO2. Also, I'm still working on a device that can pull a Narrowband O2 Sensor several percent to the rich side (this is looking pretty good).

The other day, I had someone build me a Wideband O2 Sensor (Bosch LSU 4.2), with a fixed-AFR shift Wideband Controller built into the cable (photo below, small controller not shown). At the moment it's not quite compatible with the Motronic MA 2.4 and it ends up running 9% richer than stock when it is set to 6% richer--still looking into it.

What was interesting was at 13.4:1-ish my bike's hot idle had increased to 1400 RPM from about 1200. I also noticed on a local trip to the Post Office I was in a higher gear (6th) than usual (5th). Like everyone, I shift by feel and was quite surprised that I was going 50 MPH at 2500 RPM.

While it's probably too rich (?), it seems the 1150RT likes its fuel.

RB

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Old 03-25-2013, 01:13 PM   #160
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Roger, I've been following your work from the start and have to give you a huge attaboy and THANK YOU for making all this information available to us!

I have the Innovate LM-2 and I've used that to do similar work to yours, but I worked on the Xchallenge and not on one of these boxer bikes.
The LM-2 also has the narrow band sensor emulator output.
While playing with it replacing the stock NB sensor with the LM-2, my observations were very similar to yours regarding the ECU operating modes and effects of richer CL mode target AFR.

I've always wanted to replicate this work on my 1200GS but as you know it requires two sensors -> lot of money using the Innovate components.

Now I see you are working on the ultimate solution.
Forget the IAT tampering (people pay ridiculous money for those contraptions), forget overly complex and expensive PC.
Your effort to build a WB sensor based controller that gives a fixed shift in CL AFR is the way to go!
Let me give you all the encouragement to stay on it.

If you ever decide to make such device available in any form (anything from a bolt-on kit to just a set of documentation + required bin file) I would be extremely interested.

I've made my own IAT shift devices, used and programmed PowerCommander but what I've come to believe is the best way to go is what you are working on now.

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Old 03-25-2013, 09:11 PM   #161
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Thanks flyingfinn.

I'm working on the fixed Wideband in addition to the pulled-narrowband products. A fixed Wideband of course requires replacing the O2 sensor. The pulled-narrowband approach just means opening a connector and installing a circuit between the open ends. Different degrees of difficulty and different costs.

If there was a Wideband sensor with fixed shift my tests and experience say that 4-6% shift in lambda to 0.96-0.94 would be about right. I'd be interested in whether people would want 4% which takes care of most of the driveability issues (and leaves the catalytic converter functioning a bit) or 6% for a bit more punch. Maybe a 0.5 mpg difference between the two.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:23 AM   #162
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My personal preference would be system based on a WB sensor.
Fixed shift of +5% to +6% with a "bypass switch" to go back to 14.7 for times when it's necessary to stretch the fuel range to nurse the bike to next gas station.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:50 AM   #163
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My personal preference would be system based on a WB sensor.
Fixed shift of +5% to +6% with a "bypass switch" to go back to 14.7 for times when it's necessary to stretch the fuel range to nurse the bike to next gas station.
Okay, understand, you're saying an ideal WB solution is plug-in, but could have two settings--richer than stock (lambda=0.96-ish) and (stock lambda=1).

The current planned Narrowband puller would have 4/5 settings at between lambda=1 (stock) and lambda = 0.94 (6% richer than stock).

roger 04 rt screwed with this post 03-26-2013 at 08:56 AM
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:07 AM   #164
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The current planned Narrowband puller would have 4/5 settings at between lambda=1 (stock) and lambda = 0.94 (6% richer than stock).
I like this option.
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:59 PM   #165
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Sounds like a cool project Roger. As far as the narrowband, everything I have seen indicates it suffers from poor accuracy, esp farther away from 1 you go. I think a lot of the benefit of the wideband is the inherently better accuracy everywhere, in addition to the (uhhmmm) wider band in which it is accurate.

For example I know you cannot dyno tune using a narrowband sensor. I do not know how well a narrowband would work inside closed loop at different lambda values, in the sense that you might not ever hit targets. Probably why there is no dynojet/PCIII/V without a wideband for bikes still running any sort of closed loop.
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