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Old 03-26-2013, 06:19 PM   #166
roger 04 rt OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
Sounds like a cool project Roger. As far as the narrowband, everything I have seen indicates it suffers from poor accuracy, esp farther away from 1 you go. I think a lot of the benefit of the wideband is the inherently better accuracy everywhere, in addition to the (uhhmmm) wider band in which it is accurate.

For example I know you cannot dyno tune using a narrowband sensor. I do not know how well a narrowband would work inside closed loop at different lambda values, in the sense that you might not ever hit targets. Probably why there is no dynojet/PCIII/V without a wideband for bikes still running any sort of closed loop.
I don't know if you caught the graphs and data back a few pages, but here's a link to what I've measured so far: Narrowband Shift info.

The essence of what I've seen is that the harrow band can be pulled with a data-acquisition-based signal processing circuit. The Closed Loop operation is solid and reliable. The further you get from lambda=1, the more the accuracy is affected by exhaust temperature.

I will have a better idea of how much the narrowband varies but here's what I've seen so far:

S1 means setting 1
S1 14.7:1
S2-S5 14.55 ± 0.05 AFR
S6 14.35 ±0.15 AFR
S7 14.15 ±0.15 AFR
S8 13.8 ±0.2 AFR

If you look at the graph below from the prior link, the pulled-narrowband O2 is not as precise as the Wideband but its not too bad. The idea is to provide a range of options from add-it-to-your-stock-bike to add a datalogging Wideband controller. Different options for different budgets and degrees of installation skill.

Top chart is LC-1 bottom chart is a pulled-narrowband stock sensor.

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Old 03-27-2013, 04:03 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
I don't know if you caught the graphs and data back a few pages, but here's a link to what I've measured so far: Narrowband Shift info.

The essence of what I've seen is that the harrow band can be pulled with a data-acquisition-based signal processing circuit. The Closed Loop operation is solid and reliable. The further you get from lambda=1, the more the accuracy is affected by exhaust temperature.

I will have a better idea of how much the narrowband varies but here's what I've seen so far:

S1 means setting 1
S1 14.7:1
S2-S5 14.55 ± 0.05 AFR
S6 14.35 ±0.15 AFR
S7 14.15 ±0.15 AFR
S8 13.8 ±0.2 AFR

If you look at the graph below from the prior link, the pulled-narrowband O2 is not as precise as the Wideband but its not too bad. The idea is to provide a range of options from add-it-to-your-stock-bike to add a datalogging Wideband controller. Different options for different budgets and degrees of installation skill.

Top chart is LC-1 bottom chart is a pulled-narrowband stock sensor.

OK I read that, thanks for linking. Getting the old head back into tuning bikes & cars as snowboarding season winds down and weather warms up.

I obviously did not realize you'd been working with the Harley guy and were tackling the narrowband issues through some signal processing. But the difficulties you guys are trying to surmount (inaccuracy of narrowband away from 1) are what I was talking about.

As you no doubt would guess, I prefer the wideband but if you can get a narrowband to work at low cost that would be a good option for some and certainly more elegant than those intake temp sensor fooling gizmos.
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Old 03-29-2013, 04:37 AM   #168
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Now I'm switching back to some information on the plug 'n play device that shifts the lambda (AFR) of a stock Narrowband oxygen sensor.

Narrowband O2 Closed Loop Shift, progress report.

Proto 2 of the Narrowband shifter seems pretty well set for the R1150 series. I have found an interim connector supplier at a too-high-price but it does allow me to have some preproduction units built. (Proto 2 Photo below, it needs to be prettied up with black cable, etc. Also, there is no exposed chip on the production unit) and it is very watertight.

For installation: the idea on the 1150 would be to pull the tank, connect the connectors in-line with the stock O2 sensor, run the grey cable along the right side, place the O2 circuit on the air filter cover, and attach a ground to the battery.

The specs look about like this:
(S1 means setting 1)

S1 14.7:1 (stock)
S6 14.35 ±0.15 AFR (2% richer)
S7 14.15 ±0.15 AFR (4%)
S8 13.8 ±0.2 AFR (6%)

There are a lot of steps to get a product to production and to market but there are some resources at nightrider.com to work those issues, can't say yet on timing.

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Old 04-01-2013, 11:31 AM   #169
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Over the past couple of weeks I've been working with the riders of a 2007 R1200GS and a 2011 R1200GSA (Terryckdbf) to help them with their installations of dual Innovate Motorsports LC-1s. To my knowledge they are the first to install the LC-1 systems on the R1200. I'm taking this opportunity to preview the results.

There has been a lot we've learned about the installation and there is probably a small amount of fine tuning that will get done over the next month. The R1200 required different program settings but (Terryckdbf) has a GS-911 and was able to rapidly create the data that was needed to debug the installation. He's in Georgia and I'm in chilly Massachusetts so the work was done by phone and e-mail. I'm surprised by how quickly this was accomplished.

The bottom line is that the 2011 R1200GSA has two Innovate Motorsports LC-1s installed and fully operational.

Just as a reminder, using the LC-1s results in a fully-functional Closed Loop integration with the BMS-K and requires no Dyno tuning to make it work, it leverages the full capability of the R1200, as designed.

Below is a chart of the two LC-1s, logging AFR data simultaneously, with histograms showing distributions of each independent cylinder's combustion, as measured by the LC-1, in the exhaust stream where the Wideband O2 sensors get installed in place of the stock Narrowband sensors. From the results we have so far, the BMS-K is working, without the knowledge of the shift in Lambda (that's good), delivering richer fueling, and performance improvements similar to those of the R1150 installations.


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Old 04-01-2013, 12:14 PM   #170
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Absolutely awesome!
If I didn't have a broken leg I'd be dancing from joy.

That really is great work, thanks Roger and Terry. I'm excited to see where this project goes, and standing by with money on Paypal account...

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Old 04-01-2013, 05:29 PM   #171
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I would like to thank Roger for all of his help getting the Dual LC-1's up and running. I was lucky enough to get the data he required very quickly which helped him make the recommendations we needed to get where we are now, which is a
very linear output. As Roger has stated we anticipate a tweak or two but I am very happy with the results.

Thanks again Roger.

Terry
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:31 AM   #172
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A question from some one still in the learning stage. You state Ethanol fuel results in a leaner afr mixture of about 4%. I understand that in closed loop the oxygen sensor compensates for that by selecting a richer fuel map to get the mixture back to 14.7.

You have found that the ECU is adaptive, so that it changes its mixture to mirror? what changes you have made to the wide band signal in order to richen closed loop.

If the ECU is capable of doing that, why doesn't it do the same when stock to address the lean fuel caused by Ethanol?
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Old 04-02-2013, 07:00 PM   #173
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Your questions are good ones. I've broken your questions into parts and commented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
A question from some one still in the learning stage. You state Ethanol fuel results in a leaner afr mixture of about 4%. I understand that in closed loop the oxygen sensor compensates for that by selecting a richer fuel map to get the mixture back to 14.7.
During closed loop operation the Motronic adjusts for many variables by starting with an Open Loop calculation of fuel and then running a software procedure that adjusts the fuel until it is a bit richer and a bit leaner than the oxygen sensor's switch-over point. The O2 sensor outputs a voltage of 800mV if there is no oxygen in the exhaust--meaning the mixture is richer than target. As soon as the o2 sensor detects any oxygen its output voltage drops abruptly to 100 mV. Then the Motronic ramps the fuel up and down in little amounts until it brackets that 100/800mV changeover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
You have found that the ECU is adaptive, so that it changes its mixture to mirror? what changes you have made to the wide band signal in order to richen closed loop.
Think of the Wideband sensor/controller as a lambda sensor whose transition point can be programmed by software. Therefore when you program its lambda to 0.94 (6% richer or an AFR of 13.8) that is the point when it switches from 800mV to 100mV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
If the ECU is capable of doing that, why doesn't it do the same when stock to address the lean fuel caused by Ethanol?
It does adapt for ethanol, unless you disconnect the O2 sensor, or in an R1100, remove the Coding Plug. Ethanol is only a small piece of the problem. For reasons I covered elsewhere in the thread, the Oilheads run better with 4-6% more fuel that a stock oxygen sensor allows.

However if you start with 4% lean and want to get to 6% rich the Motronic has to move a total of 10%. So I mention ethanol to given an idea of what the Motronic is doing and as a way to describe one of the virtues of closed loop over open loop.
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Old 04-02-2013, 07:36 PM   #174
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It is fascinating to read and understand Roger's work.

I recall as a young lad, (~4 years old) during WWII dad joined the US Navy and we moved to Cambridge, MA where dad attended MIT and worked on the team that was tasked with developing the first US military RADAR. He would come home at night and talk to mom about the progress they were making with antennas, RF cavities, oscillators and all the other stuff needed to track aircraft 25 miles away.

These posts about narrow band and wide band oxygen sensors and AFRs remind me of those days, circa 1942.

Don't stop now...you're just gettin' warmed up.
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:07 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by def View Post
It is fascinating to read and understand Roger's work.

I recall as a young lad, (~4 years old) during WWII dad joined the US Navy and we moved to Cambridge, MA where dad attended MIT and worked on the team that was tasked with developing the first US military RADAR. He would come home at night and talk to mom about the progress they were making with antennas, RF cavities, oscillators and all the other stuff needed to track aircraft 25 miles away.

These posts about narrow band and wide band oxygen sensors and AFRs remind me of those days, circa 1942.

Don't stop now...you're just gettin' warmed up.
Thanks for the comments. This is interesting and satisfying work, if you're lucky enough to have the time.

terryckdbf is starting to log lots of simultaneous data taken with GS-911, and dual LC-1s. That means we will be able to detail exactly what the BMS-K is doing from the point of reset to full adaptation--and from cold start to fully warmed up. It's a tall order but will give us a lot of insight that we will share here.

Yesterday, I "won" an eBay auction for a PC III USB with Wideband O2 which will give me the ability to test it vs LC-1. But more importantly to see how we could improve the performance of the R1150 series by filling in some gaps that wjg4 has found at light throttle/high rpm. Good stuff coming from that research too.

Also, I'm running tests on a Narrowband O2 shifter that will be plug 'n play in concert with nightrider.com. That is getting ready for production.

Then, I've found a fixed Wideband O2 sensor that you could plug in at 13.8 or 14.1 and have the ability to switch back to stock. This is earlier in the thread but still in early evaluation.

Of course there is the full LC-1 install which now works for the entire R1200 series. This is the Cadillac of the line, flexibility, datalogging and diagnostics.

So lots of good stuff still to try out and post.

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Old 04-03-2013, 10:18 AM   #176
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:09 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjg04oh
I had a chance to get out yesterday afternoon for a brief ride on the Interstate where I could get the bike into the upper gears. In 4th, 5th and 6th above 4000 rpm the AFR never got above 13.8, unlike the lower gears.

Does anyone have an idea why the Motronic apparently goes open loop (AFR 14.4) above 4000 rpm in the lower gears, but not in the upper gears? AFR stays right around 13.8 at steady speed on level going all of the time except above 4000 rpm in 1st, 2nd & 3rd!

I did observe a couple of times at higher rpm in the lower gears yesterday when the AFR dropped down to 13.8, but didn't get enough riding in to be able to replicate the conditions.
Last week I took some data from the LC-1 to see what was happening. The conditions of the plot below were:

Idled to log closed loop AFR.
Road in second gear between 4000-5000 rpm, throttle locked
Road in first gear 4000-5000 rpm, throttle locked.

Conclusions:
Above 4000 rpm in 1st or 2nd gear, the Motronic is Open Loop even if the throttle is locked-steady. Depending on throttle angle and load, the Motronic is leaner or richer than the lambda switch point, up to 4% lean.

On my bike 4% lean is 14.4; on a stock bike it would be 15.3:1, very lean. Add in some cylinder mismatch and the leanest cylinder could get close to 16:1—certainly in surging territory. This is the best measured evidence I've seen of surge-able conditions being created by the Motronic. This is much leaner than anything observed so far. As more bikes run LC-1s the Motronic will give up more secrets.

Also since the bike is Open Loop above 4K, the chart shows pretty good evidence of Adaptation being applied in the Open Loop area as the Open Loop AFRs seem well correlated to the lambda 0.94 target (13.8:1).

RB

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Old 04-17-2013, 06:29 AM   #178
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I've been reading through these threads learning tons and feeling very thankful for the great work you guys have done and your willingness to share it.



I'm about to install an LC-1 and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator here on my '95 R1100GS. Happy to upload any data that I can pull out from the process.

I 'm running with a Remus exhaust with lambda sensor. Everything else is stock.

A couple of questions I have:

I read lots of apparently contradictory information on cat, o2 sensor, co pot, ccp plugs, and such. One example: the "no cat" tan plug: Does it indicate "no cat and no o2 sensor"? or just "no o2 sensor", or maybe just "no cat"? Why would the ECU care about a cat being there, but it clearly does care about the presence of an o2 probe. This would not be confusing if *all* R1100 bikes had a lambda probe, but they did not. Australian ones didn't. (as far as I understand.) This makes me believe that "no cat", in the CCP plug nomenclature, might really mean "no lambda probe". Help?

A related question: do we know for sure if an R1100GS can work with both a co pot and a lambda probe working in unison? I read contradictory info on that too, but I guess this would not be too hard to figure out. Happy to do some lab work here if this would help shed some light.
First let me say congratulations. Once you get this done you will be very pleased with the performance of your bike and with the extensive diagnostic insight you gain.

If you haven't already read the Wideband Installation Overview. It is for the R1150 series. The R1100 will be almost the same but the wiring is easier and one or two voltages will be slightly different. I will update the thread soon for 1100 but if I haven't by the time you need it, email me.

Tan plug means IGNORE THE O2 SENSOR. Therefore whether a cat is installed or not doesn't matter.

The Motronic MA 2.2 doesn't, to the best of my knowledge run CO Pot and O2 sensor simultaneously. It will do one of two things with fueling, depending on which CCPs are installed: run Open Loop and allow idle CO adjustment with the CO pot; or run Closed Loop programs that use the O2 sensor as reference.

Once you have the LC-1 installed you will know how the MA 2.2 works. You might be first to document it.
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:03 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
First let me say congratulations. Once you get this done you will be very pleased with the performance of your bike and with the extensive diagnostic insight you gain.
...
Once you have the LC-1 installed you will know how the MA 2.2 works. You might be first to document it.
Thanks for your answers Roger. It's a bummer that the Motronic 2.2 won't talk very much to a GS-911, otherwise I'd get one to pull all sorts of juicy data. Makes me wanna move to a R1150, but I do love my old GS.
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Old 04-17-2013, 11:51 AM   #180
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Thanks for your answers Roger. It's a bummer that the Motronic 2.2 won't talk very much to a GS-911, otherwise I'd get one to pull all sorts of juicy data. Makes me wanna move to a R1150, but I do love my old GS.
True, you can't get much from a GS-911. However, the LC-1 outputs a lot of data and it's modular so for less than the cost of a 911 you can capture othe data--e.g. Rpm, temperature, TPS ,etc.
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