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Old 06-25-2013, 06:09 PM   #271
Mr. Canoehead
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Is this just to fool the Motronic circuit? My 1150 PCIII doesn't hook up the heater at all (it just blanks the pins) and I don't get any warnings from the Motronic.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:04 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by rumirunto View Post
What did you decide on? I'm about to install my LC-1 and I'm leaning towards using a 2W 20 ohm resistor.
No heater resistor is needed on an R1100 or R1150.

On the R1200 Terry rans some experiments and found that 120 to 150 ohms was all it took to keep the BMSK satisfied. An f800s rider used 7 1/4W 1K ohm resistors in parallel. That means the dissipation is about 1.5 watts.

I'd be inclined to use seven 1/2 watt 1K resistors in parallel or 1 150ohm 5Watt resistor.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:10 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Mr. Canoehead View Post
Eric, I am interested in why you left the IAT fooler in place with the "Roger Gizmo" (my working name, feel free to use it ) installed?

In theory, you shouldn't need both and they might compete or compound. Is the IAT fooler there for open loop operation?
By leaving the IAT shifter in place, set at -20C, you can think of it like every cell in the fuel table starts out 6% richer. That means the Motronic has to do less adaptation to reach a 6% richer O2 sensor target. They work together nicely.

It also works without the IAT shift, but the Motronic has to spend more time adapting. If you want I could write a longer example.

For sure though, they don't fight each other.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:17 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by EKinOR View Post
Just got back from 767 mile trip with production unit #1. Bike is a 2002 R1150GS (single spark), with an IICE Air and Uni air filter. Entire trip was 2-up, total weight 1100lbs. Elevations varied from sea level to 5600'. Temperatures were from 75 to 40, with humidity from 30% to 100%. Speeds were usually in the 50-65 MPH range, with some short duration speeds a bit higher for passing.

Started the trip on setting 6, as I ran the test unit at 8 and wanted to see if there was any difference. I noticed slight surging at specific RPMs and it seemed to get worse over the first two days. Not sure why. Averaged 39 MPG for the first 395 miles (odometer).

I the switched to setting 7 when I filled up at 395 miles into the trip. I did not reset the Motronic. This seemed to help the surging and I only briefly noticed it on a few occasions. Averaged 39 MPG again over the last 372 miles.

I did not do a TB sync after installing the O2 device, but will do one as soon as I get the chance. I am also planning on having my injectors cleaned and matched this winter, and possibly rebuilding the TBs.

I am still very happy with the device (Roger did you guys ever come up with a name?) and highly recommend it, along with an IAT fooling device.
BMW-AF-XIED, building on Steve's IED patent and brand. It stands for BMW Air Fuel eXtended Inline Enrichment Device.

Wally G found that his 1150 still had a slight surge at small throttle openings and light load in first second and third. The Motronic is Open Loop there. It might also be affected by injector mismatch. You could try reseating your Motronic, setting the iice air to -30C and BMW-AF-XIED to 8.

I'm a little surprised at the mileage because the RT riders have had quite good mileage even at 6-8% enrichment. Keep an eye on it.
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Old 06-25-2013, 11:10 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Wally G found that his 1150 still had a slight surge at small throttle openings and light load in first second and third. The Motronic is Open Loop there. It might also be affected by injector mismatch. You could try reseating your Motronic, setting the iice air to -30C and BMW-AF-XIED to 8.
I'm going to check the TB sync first, but may try this if the sync is good.

Quote:
I'm a little surprised at the mileage because the RT riders have had quite good mileage even at 6-8% enrichment. Keep an eye on it.
Should it be lower or higher? That's about what I usually get on the highway by myself and at lower GVW. I don't have a baseline for 2-up as this was the first trip of more than a few hours. I tend to ride pretty hard and usually only get 36-ish around town. Highest I ever got was 41 when going through Nevada with lost of long, straight, level roads.
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Old 06-25-2013, 11:11 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
By leaving the IAT shifter in place, set at -20C, you can think of it like every cell in the fuel table starts out 6% richer. That means the Motronic has to do less adaptation to reach a 6% richer O2 sensor target. They work together nicely.

It also works without the IAT shift, but the Motronic has to spend more time adapting. If you want I could write a longer example.

For sure though, they don't fight each other.
Doesn't the IAT have an effect on open loop and the O2 on closed loop?
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:22 AM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EKinOR View Post
I'm going to check the TB sync first, but may try this if the sync is good.



Should it be lower or higher? That's about what I usually get on the highway by myself and at lower GVW. I don't have a baseline for 2-up as this was the first trip of more than a few hours. I tend to ride pretty hard and usually only get 36-ish around town. Highest I ever got was 41 when going through Nevada with lost of long, straight, level roads.
I didn't ask what you normally got or how you rode, and on top of that I was thinking about RTs and GSs which get different mileage. 6th gear on the RT is 11-12% higher, leading to better mileage. When I done estimates of the coefficient of drag, the GS seems to be 8-10% higher. So all in all I think that getting about 39, having gotten about 39 previously is pretty good.
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Old 06-26-2013, 11:04 AM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Wally G found that his 1150 still had a slight surge at small throttle openings and light load in first second and third. The Motronic is Open Loop there. It might also be affected by injector mismatch. You could try reseating your Motronic, setting the iice air to -30C and BMW-AF-XIED to 8.
I'm just back from a 4200 mile ride in all weather conditions, types of roads, speeds, etc, and as nearly as I can tell the LC-1 has made no impact on mileage.

My bike is a 2001 R1150 GS with 80,000 miles, a 3.5 bar fuel pressure regulator, LC-1 programmed at .94, cleaned and very closely matched injectors, fresh valve adjust and TB sync, bike was loaded with Jesse side and top cases.

Traveling at 70-75 mph (actual according to GPS) and using actual (GPS) vs indicated (odometer) miles the bike got 40 mpg. That is at least as good as or better than got previously. Figuring mpg on odometer miles the mpg goes up to 42, which is what many report on their R1150s.

The good mileage at Lambda .94 may well be due to the fact that I use 6th gear from 62 or 62 mph on up. The bike pulls much better in the lower rpms with the LC-1.

As Roger mentioned again, I can still detect slight surging/hunting in the 2800-3800 rpm range in 1st, 2nd & 3rd gears under "optimal" conditions, but it is never an issue in normal riding.
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Old 06-26-2013, 12:04 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by wjg4 View Post
As Roger mentioned again, I can still detect slight surging/hunting in the 2800-3800 rpm range in 1st, 2nd & 3rd gears under "optimal" conditions, but it is never an issue in normal riding.
That is pretty much what I experienced with the BMW-AF-XIED on setting 6. Setting 7 pretty much eliminated it. On setting 8 on the prototype unit, there was no surging.
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Old 06-26-2013, 12:40 PM   #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EKinOR View Post
Doesn't the IAT have an effect on open loop and the O2 on closed loop?
That is my understanding as well - the O2 has no effect on open loop - it couldn't because it is a narrow band unit. It should just read rich at all times during open loop operation. I guess if you wanted to correct open loop for ethanol fuel, using the IAT fooler would allow you to richen a fixed percentage across the board.

My PCIII map (which we all agree isn't great) only shows enrichment in a few places in open loop mode (mostly above 80% throttle), which suggests that the bike is rich enough, at least for non-ethanol fuel.



What sort of mixture were you seeing on the LC-1 in open loop mode, Roger?
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:38 PM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EKinOR View Post
Doesn't the IAT have an effect on open loop and the O2 on closed loop?
Yes, you're correct. IAT effects Open Loop and O2 effects Closed Loop. But, the Closed Loop results also effect the Open Loop results through a process of adaptation. Because if that, Open Loop and Closed Loop areas of the fueling are not independent of one another.

Adaptation Values are mentioned in the BMW Shop manual but not described anywhere else in the BMW documentation. Because of that, it is hard to understand them.

However if you look at the draft block diagram I've put together here: Motronic MA 2.4 Closed Loop Block Diagram you can see two boxes near the final fueling calculation steps Compare and Adapt. What these two steps do is compare the amount of fuel calculated in Closed Loop to the amount of fuel calculated by Open Loop.

So even when the Motronic is basing its fueling calculation on the O2 sensor, it is also performing the table look-ups and math as if it were going to use Open Loop. If it sees that it needs X% more fuel in the Closed Loop areas, it applies something like that same X% in the Open Loop areas as well.

Adaptation is a great feature for an ECU. It means that it can adapt to the 4% leanness of E10, or fuel pressure that's a little low or high, or air temperature, barometric temperature sensor errors. Without it, Closed Loop fueling would be right on but Open Loop fueling say at WOT could be too lean.

(The BMSK reports its Lambda Correction Factor in real time. When it does, you can literally watch adaptation happen.) Even though the Motronic doesn't report it, you can see its effects in the AFR reports from the LC-1.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Canoehead View Post
That is my understanding as well - the O2 has no effect on open loop - it couldn't because it is a narrow band unit. It should just read rich at all times during open loop operation. I guess if you wanted to correct open loop for ethanol fuel, using the IAT fooler would allow you to richen a fixed percentage across the board.

My PCIII map (which we all agree isn't great) only shows enrichment in a few places in open loop mode (mostly above 80% throttle), which suggests that the bike is rich enough, at least for non-ethanol fuel.



What sort of mixture were you seeing on the LC-1 in open loop mode, Roger?
***Added EDIT: I had a PC III for testing last month. 60% seems to mean up to 60% which suggests that from 48 degrees to 80 degrees the bike is open loop. If you look at the spark timing tables earlier in the thread that seems about right. In the TPS vs Spark Advance below you can see the advance drop at 48 degrees suggesting a richer mixture.

Looking at that PCIII map, you can see leaner are richer than the Lambda set point for AFR at small throttle angles above 2500 rpm depending on whether the Motronic is sensing acceleration or deceleration. I've showed that plot earlier in the thread.

Also, at WOT my AFRs get into the low 12s:1. On a stock bike, they run in the high 12s.

And just to repeat what I said earlier, Closed Loop and Open Loop are not as separate as the terms sound. They are closely linked by Adaptation Values.

I didn't say it earlier but I have read that Bosch used a two element adaptation strategy around this time, an offset factor that was added or subtracted that was effective short pulse widths and multiplicative factor having more effect for longer pulse widths. Here is an example of that approach from an early 2000s BMW automobile:



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Old 06-26-2013, 03:26 PM   #282
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To see adaptation more clearly, if there were only two cells in the fuel table

10deg/4000RPM Closed Loop (Cruise) Cell 1
80deg/7000RPM Open Loop (Wide Open) Cell 2

You might see a time of 3.5 mS (thousandths of a second) in cell 1 and the fuel table designers may have worked out that that was the precise amount of fuel to hit lambda=1 (14.7:1 for gasoline).

They then might have had, in cell 2, 7.2 mS for lambda=0.9 (13.2:1 for gasoline) for WOT Open Loop.

Say that everything was perfect, and it hit its AFR targets with those values.

Now go and put E10 in the tank, which is 4% leaner than gasoline. Closed Loop, cell 1, would quickly learn that it took a pulse of 3.64 mS to get an AFR of lambda=1. It would compare that to the 3.5 mS in the fuel table and calculate that Open Loop would need 4% more fuel than the stock fuel table.

When you went WOT, cell 2, even though it couldn't close the loop, it would multiply the 7.2 mS up to 7.49 mS and if you put a probe in the exhaust (as I've done with the LC-1) the probe would indicate lambda 0.9 (as desired).

So I gave the example of 4% leaner E10. The same holds true for every other type of error: fuel pressure, average injector flow, battery voltage (which affects the injectors) air temp sensor errors, barometric pressure sensor errors, air filter restriction, intake flow, cylinder size diminishment due to carbon accumulation and so on.
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:22 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by wjg4 View Post
I'm just back from a 4200 mile ride in all weather conditions, types of roads, speeds, etc, and as nearly as I can tell the LC-1 has made no impact on mileage.

My bike is a 2001 R1150 GS with 80,000 miles, a 3.5 bar fuel pressure regulator, LC-1 programmed at .94, cleaned and very closely matched injectors, fresh valve adjust and TB sync, bike was loaded with Jesse side and top cases.

Traveling at 70-75 mph (actual according to GPS) and using actual (GPS) vs indicated (odometer) miles the bike got 40 mpg. That is at least as good as or better than got previously. Figuring mpg on odometer miles the mpg goes up to 42, which is what many report on their R1150s.

The good mileage at Lambda .94 may well be due to the fact that I use 6th gear from 62 or 62 mph on up. The bike pulls much better in the lower rpms with the LC-1.

As Roger mentioned again, I can still detect slight surging/hunting in the 2800-3800 rpm range in 1st, 2nd & 3rd gears under "optimal" conditions, but it is never an issue in normal riding.
Interesting about the mileage. Most riders with LC-1s or the new BMW-AF-XIED are reporting same or better even with 6% enrichment like you.

When you say a little surging under optimal conditions I guess you mean if you work hard to find it you can feel a bit, in that open loop area where it gets leaner.
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:16 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
When you say a little surging under optimal conditions I guess you mean if you work hard to find it you can feel a bit, in that open loop area where it gets leaner.
RB
That is correct, Roger. I have located a stretch of very smooth road with slight downhill transitioning gradually to slight uphill. When I maintain a steady throttle just below 3000 rpm in the lower gears I experience the "hunting" behavior as the bike transitions from engine braking to no power to engine pulling. To my non-technical mind it seems like the Motronic is trying to decide whether to give the engine more fuel or not, hence the "hunting." Yes, this is the leaner open loop area.

In ordinary riding on city streets and secondary roads once in a while conditions are such that I experience this "hunting", but I doubt very much that most riders would notice this let alone consider it a driveability issue.

The "hunting" is much less evident with the LC-1 than with stock fueling. In the next few days I'm going to program the LC-1 to .92 and see if that reduces the "hunting" even further.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:08 AM   #285
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The weather has been sunny and hot here the last few days. I've been able to ride a fair amount with the BMW-AF-XIED Beta in place. Unfortunately I have not been able to procure a GS-911 (they seemed to be backordered) and have not captured any realtime data. I have however put the BMW-AF-XIED Beta through it's paces with some low speed twisty stuff and some high speed highway stuff.

Each ride has been smoother than the one before as the BMS-K adapts. I can say for sure that the F800 motor likes running richer. Idle is ~1300 PRM; which I think is a bit higher. I'll confirm when I remove the beta unit. It takes the throttle MUCH smoother throughout the rev range. Feels more like a properly carbureted motorcycle. The most impressive is the low speed stuff. MUCH less jerky at constant throttle in 1st gear. The high speed stuff is impressive too. 4th to 5th and 5th to 6th is crisp. No stumble when I short shift around 4K-5K or run it on out and shift at 7K-8K. Basically, in plain words, it just takes the fuel better.

So far I have been running with setting 7 which should be resulting in 14.15 0.15 AFR (4%). I'll take another long ride Saturday with this setting and then switch to setting 8. S8 should result in 13.8 0.2 AFR (6%).

Here are few pics of the installation.

Remove the torx bolts connecting the voltage regulator and the side cover.


Once the two torx bolts are removed holding the voltage regulator, remove the zip tie and move the regulator to the right side.


This view is taken looking back in above the chain. The O2 sensor is circled and the wire that you will eventually be working with.


This view is looking back in from where the charcoal canister is located. I had previously removed this canister and had easy access. The BMW-AF-XIED Beta will be fitting between the two pieces of the connector indicated with the arrow.


This connector has a tab that holds it together. Carefully lift this tab with a small screwdriver (carefully! doesn't' need much) carefully pull apart.


The connector separated.


Currently the BMW-AF-XIED Beta has a right angle connector on one side. This will plug into the O2 wire connector that is fixed to the frame.


Here you can see both sides of the BMW-AF-XIED Beta connected to the O2 wire. Also notice I have routed the BMW-AF-XIED Beta wiring behind the brake lines. *Note this might not be the way I would route things with the production version. TBD.


Here you can see the 'electronics and LED' portion of the BMW-AF-XIED Beta that I have routed to come out in the area behind the side cover. I don't have more photos of that routing unfortunately as I did this without removing the airbox. I'll try to add those views at a later date.


There is also a ground wire coming off the 'electronics and LED' portion. This is routed between the airbox and right side upper tupperware to come out near the battery. This wire currently has a spade connector in the middle to make this easier.


Here you see things just before the right cover was reinstalled. A zip tie was used to secure the wiring harness and the 'electronics and LED' portion is just sort of tucked in.

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