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Old 12-25-2011, 03:57 AM   #16
GSFREEK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzRob View Post
Well actually there is..... the BMW seals have two sealing surfaces the outer seal has small grooves and lands that point one way at a angle, and next to the seal ID number there is a arrow marking the rotation of the sealing shaft.....
sorry for having been the smart-ass. I looked it up and they seem to exist. MY BAD
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Old 12-25-2011, 07:38 AM   #17
Murkidi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzRob View Post
Hi Manuel,
Sounds like normal gearbox with no load your bike is a 1995 GS so you may have the M95 transmission with roller bearings so it might just need reshiming....., however my M79 gearbox, if the rear input shaft bearing is gone like my photos it would sound a bit like your gearbox, what does it sound like on the road?, when decelerating in 2nd gear around 30kmph it will give a Grrrrrrr sound.
How much metal is on the gearbox drain plug, if there is a fine black paste then this is normal...well better than pieces of the bearing ball roller race which you will find if the bearing is gone.

Thanks OzRob,

I just change the oil for the tranny, that had no more than 8000 to 9000 kms (about 2 engine oil chages) the drain plug had a kind of silver brown paste, although it look like pices I check it with my fingers and was a paste the magnet make it look like that

Tranny drain plug


tranny use oil


the oil has an appearance of metalize paint for car or something like it , i was using SPIRAX 80w90 form SHELL but after this i chainge to sintec castrol 75w90

in the other hand this is the FD drain plug


and the FD oil


I am still thinking that may be the cluth rode or the piston that are worn out (i hope so would be cheaper to repair)

thanks again OzRob for your knowledge

manuel....
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Old 12-25-2011, 07:40 AM   #18
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OzRob I do not have any of those noises when riding on 2nd or 3rd gear, yes my is an M94 tranny ......
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Old 12-25-2011, 03:37 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by GSFREEK View Post
sorry for having been the smart-ass. I looked it up and they seem to exist. MY BAD
Mate....I believe this forum is about sharing knowledge....I don't think you are a smart ass....because you questioned my previous answer...you have gained knowledge.....and that is what it is all about......and everyone wins ....and it stops you from putting in non OEM seals in a gearbox that will leak oil...which is a pain in the bum......
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Old 12-25-2011, 03:52 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Murkidi View Post
Thanks OzRob,

I just change the oil for the tranny, that had no more than 8000 to 9000 kms (about 2 engine oil chages) the drain plug had a kind of silver brown paste, although it look like pices I check it with my fingers and was a paste the magnet make it look like that

Tranny drain plug


tranny use oil


the oil has an appearance of metalize paint for car or something like it , i was using SPIRAX 80w90 form SHELL but after this i chainge to sintec castrol 75w90

in the other hand this is the FD drain plug


and the FD oil


I am still thinking that may be the cluth rode or the piston that are worn out (i hope so would be cheaper to repair)

thanks again OzRob for your knowledge

manuel....
Hi Manuel,
I would keep running synthetic oil and have a look at the drain plug every 5000km or so and see how much metallic paste is on the magnet.....that way you can monitor if the gearbox.
What causes the paste????? the only things it can be is that the hard facing off the gears or bearings, the M94 (early) gearbox has plain tapered roller bearings which did have issues with preload.
The noise is normal idle rattle because you have two large pistons inputing power pulses into the input shaft of the gearbox, it is unlikely a problem with the clutch or the clutch actuator piston, also the BMW uses a solid clutch disk, as opposed to a normal car clutch plate which has torsional springs.

Have a look at this web site...some good information.

http://www.largiader.com/tech/oiltrans/
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Old 12-25-2011, 04:20 PM   #21
Murkidi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzRob View Post
Hi Manuel,
I would keep running synthetic oil and have a look at the drain plug every 5000km or so and see how much metallic paste is on the magnet.....that way you can monitor if the gearbox.
What causes the paste????? the only things it can be is that the hard facing off the gears or bearings, the M94 (early) gearbox has plain tapered roller bearings which did have issues with preload.
The noise is normal idle rattle because you have two large pistons inputing power pulses into the input shaft of the gearbox, it is unlikely a problem with the clutch or the clutch actuator piston, also the BMW uses a solid clutch disk, as opposed to a normal car clutch plate which has torsional springs.

Have a look at this web site...some good information.

http://www.largiader.com/tech/oiltrans/
Thanks OzRob !!!! thankas for sharing your knowledge, it make more clear what is happening inside my gear box and engine, for some time I was thinking that all those noises where the clutch until i have the oil change and had this conversations with you,

i have done a lot of mantainace in cars an truks and air compressors but is my first time on a bmw bike , this is my first year with her!!!

thanks again and we will stay in contact !!!

manuel...
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Old 12-25-2011, 06:34 PM   #22
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Beautiful!

As an 1999 GS1100 owner with one tranny rebuild by a pro, I found your tear down and the input fantastic!
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Old 12-30-2011, 01:35 PM   #23
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Getting back to the matter at hand, and laying all over my workbench.

I popped the gear and bearing off the input shaft.

Be careful when doing this, there is the circlip that you pop off, then a steel cover, then underneath that, a split ring clip that holds the bearing in. Based on the parts catalog, these clips / retainers both come in different thinknesses, so they serve some sort of shimming or preload function since springs are involved. DON'T JUST TRY TO PRESS OFF THE BEARING AFTER REMOVING ONLY THE CIRCLIP.

Here's what came off:




Now here is the gear, then the bearing.






Here's what I've surmised from the photos. While I've not gotten to a gear grinding episode as pictured above, and on Anton's website, it looks like its started. What's got me a bit concerned, is the gear has worn perfectly into the bearing inner race (?). Even the two little divits in the gear face are worn into the bearing, which essentially locks the bearing into the gear rotation. Also, you can see the rotation has discolored the bearing seal. The bearing pressed off the shaft, so it was not free-wheeling or turning on the shaft, best as I can tell.

Now, according to Anton's site, the M97 gear has a bevel on the inside bore. I really don't see that- my gear appears perfectly flat across the top surface- except for the wear (which does not pass the 'catches a fingernail' test). This gear is what Anton shows as being a M94/M95 style gear, still available from BMW. For the M97, BMW wants to sell me the whole shaft at about $800.

Now, I guess I'm asking for expert input here. It looks like I should be buying a new gear and a new bearing- $300ish, plus all new seals since I'm this far. Replacing one without the other will just accelerate wear, getting me back to were I am now. Any thoughts?


Next episode: Third gear. Should I worry about it?
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Old 12-30-2011, 05:50 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by mark883 View Post
Getting back to the matter at hand, and laying all over my workbench.

I popped the gear and bearing off the input shaft.

Be careful when doing this, there is the circlip that you pop off, then a steel cover, then underneath that, a split ring clip that holds the bearing in. Based on the parts catalog, these clips / retainers both come in different thinknesses, so they serve some sort of shimming or preload function since springs are involved. DON'T JUST TRY TO PRESS OFF THE BEARING AFTER REMOVING ONLY THE CIRCLIP.

Here's what came off:




Now here is the gear, then the bearing.






Here's what I've surmised from the photos. While I've not gotten to a gear grinding episode as pictured above, and on Anton's website, it looks like its started. What's got me a bit concerned, is the gear has worn perfectly into the bearing inner race (?). Even the two little divits in the gear face are worn into the bearing, which essentially locks the bearing into the gear rotation. Also, you can see the rotation has discolored the bearing seal. The bearing pressed off the shaft, so it was not free-wheeling or turning on the shaft, best as I can tell.

Now, according to Anton's site, the M97 gear has a bevel on the inside bore. I really don't see that- my gear appears perfectly flat across the top surface- except for the wear (which does not pass the 'catches a fingernail' test). This gear is what Anton shows as being a M94/M95 style gear, still available from BMW. For the M97, BMW wants to sell me the whole shaft at about $800.

Now, I guess I'm asking for expert input here. It looks like I should be buying a new gear and a new bearing- $300ish, plus all new seals since I'm this far. Replacing one without the other will just accelerate wear, getting me back to were I am now. Any thoughts?


Next episode: Third gear. Should I worry about it?
Hi Mark,
what you need to do with the gear is machine the gear to fit a hardened stainless steel washer on the face that contacts the inner race of the bearing, in your picture you can see where the gear is starting to wear into the gear, have this part machined out and fit a washer, the washer should spin freely, not a press fit, that way the washer can also spin, as it acts like a thrust washer,
Once this modification is done it should last a long time.....
Don't be too concerned about the two half moon retainers and the c clip thickness as the tolerance is taken up by the spring cush drive cam, the half moon retainers in your picture look OK still, my old ones had a very noticeable groove in them.
I don't have any pictures as the modified shaft assembly is fitted to the newish gearbox on the GS, as per my previous comments.
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Old 12-31-2011, 10:16 AM   #25
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Old 12-31-2011, 12:21 PM   #26
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That is exactly what my gear looked like when I pulled it out. I like the idea of using a hardened steel washer to help reduce wear on the bearing, but a quick solution is to face off the gear, turn the bearing around and put it all back together. The surface of the gear does not appear to be hardened, so the new surface should last as long as the old one.

This is the surface of my gear after surfacing.
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Old 12-31-2011, 12:29 PM   #27
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Wouldn't you want to do it right and not worry about it tho

If there is a known fix and you've got the thing apart you may as well do the fix so you don't have to open it up again, for the same reason at least
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Old 01-02-2012, 10:08 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Graminal95 View Post
That is exactly what my gear looked like when I pulled it out. I like the idea of using a hardened steel washer to help reduce wear on the bearing, but a quick solution is to face off the gear, turn the bearing around and put it all back together. The surface of the gear does not appear to be hardened, so the new surface should last as long as the old one.

This is the surface of my gear after surfacing.
yeahbut....

surfacing the wearing face of the gear only puts the bearing that much closer to the gear teeth. So, in another 40 thousand miles or so, the outer race of the bearing may be wearing into the gear teeth, creating bigger more expensive problems. At 45k miles, mine is a relatively low mileage GS, so I'm leaning towards replacing the gear.

I'm not talented enough to make me a washer/spacer to fit between the gear and the bearing, and I'm pretty sure I can't just order one, being metric and all that.
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Old 01-02-2012, 12:44 PM   #29
rc mad
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yeahbut....

surfacing the wearing face of the gear only puts the bearing that much closer to the gear teeth. So, in another 40 thousand miles or so, the outer race of the bearing may be wearing into the gear teeth, creating bigger more expensive problems. At 45k miles, mine is a relatively low mileage GS, so I'm leaning towards replacing the gear.

I'm not talented enough to make me a washer/spacer to fit between the gear and the bearing, and I'm pretty sure I can't just order one, being metric and all that.



From what I understand you'd need to get the gear machined out a couple of mm deep at most and a slightly larger diameter then the inner race of the bearing, then you need a washer that sits in the machined area flush and free floating so that only the inner race of the bearing and the washer are touching. My advice would be to find a friendly engineering shop, that's a piss easy bit of work to do, it doesn't matter that it's metric either, they'll know what needs doing if you explain it correctly. A drawing would help them understand it better.

Shame your not on this side of the pond, I could get it sorted at work in a couple of hours
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Old 01-02-2012, 06:37 PM   #30
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From what I understand you'd need to get the gear machined out a couple of mm deep at most and a slightly larger diameter then the inner race of the bearing, then you need a washer that sits in the machined area flush and free floating so that only the inner race of the bearing and the washer are touching. My advice would be to find a friendly engineering shop, that's a piss easy bit of work to do, it doesn't matter that it's metric either, they'll know what needs doing if you explain it correctly. A drawing would help them understand it better.

Shame your not on this side of the pond, I could get it sorted at work in a couple of hours

In high school, I took woodshop, band and choir.

Shoulda took metalshop

I'm pretty sure it could be machined locally, I know a couple guys. Does the 'washer' need to be anything special metallurigally speaking?
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