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Old 05-20-2013, 12:18 PM   #526
_cy_ OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ER70S-2 View Post


Does that mean I shouldn't be letting this.....................


do that, to this?
knew I was going to get flagged on that blanket statement not using any charger for AGM with a desulfate mode.

there are ways to desulfate AGM cells ... but generally AGM should not never, ever be equalized, unless you have specific instruction from the Mfg on how to do it, and how to monitor and measure the process.

AGM batteries should not be charged over 14.8v ... during typical desulfate mode, voltages can exceed 15.9v. most PB chargers with desulfate modes are designed for wet PB.

just so happens Optimate 3+ does support AGM with desulfate modes. Tecmate folks put out some very_good charger.

_cy_ screwed with this post 05-20-2013 at 12:25 PM
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:54 PM   #527
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Cy:
Thank's, that wasn't a test, I'm just a guy not wanting to ruin my stuff.
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Old 05-21-2013, 04:25 AM   #528
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Cy. Question...

On the subject of de-sulphateing batteries...

Ive been doing this for years..well cos it works.

Completely dead batteries, reversing the charge for say 30 second so then the battery will start accepting a charge/chemical reaction....
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:10 AM   #529
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de-sulphation of Lead-Acid AGM batteries can take up to 18-20 volts.
There are only 2 chargers (that I ever came across) that can do this.
the Yuasa MB-2040 charger is one, and the old school Christie analog charger can as well. Max on the guage is 18 volts, and it will hit that, no problem. Keep in mind, a lead-acid battery will take what it can get, if it needs it.
One way you can tell if an AGM battery is sulfated. If it has low voltage, you hook it up to a standard automatic charger/maintainer, and it goes immediately to float without attempting to charge.
If this happens take it to a dealer to charge. Yuasa MB-2040, or Christie are $300-$500 chargers.
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:00 AM   #530
_cy_ OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie264 View Post
Cy. Question...

On the subject of de-sulphateing batteries...

Ive been doing this for years..well cos it works.

Completely dead batteries, reversing the charge for say 30 second so then the battery will start accepting a charge/chemical reaction....
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKohler883 View Post
de-sulphation of Lead-Acid AGM batteries can take up to 18-20 volts.
There are only 2 chargers (that I ever came across) that can do this.
the Yuasa MB-2040 charger is one, and the old school Christie analog charger can as well. Max on the guage is 18 volts, and it will hit that, no problem. Keep in mind, a lead-acid battery will take what it can get, if it needs it.
One way you can tell if an AGM battery is sulfated. If it has low voltage, you hook it up to a standard automatic charger/maintainer, and it goes immediately to float without attempting to charge.
If this happens take it to a dealer to charge. Yuasa MB-2040, or Christie are $300-$500 chargers.
thanks very much for joining in ...

De-sulfating PB is a sub topic all to itself ... then add different types of PB like AGM or Gel that has subset characteristics. there's folks devoted to pulse charging PB, with claims of bringing back to life dead lead acid batteries.

have had conversations with high end charger mfg as to why their charger that had impressive number of features. but didn't have a pulse mode for PB? their answer was they have yet to see proof pulse charging actually works bringing dead PB back to life, restoring lost AH capacity.

what brought my initial comments of not using PB chargers with desulfate mode is the number of crude chargers out there that simply raise voltage to 15.9v+. which is fine for automotive size wet PB, but will probably kill a motorcycle sized AGM. it's best not to use any PB chargers with AGM with voltage higher than 14.8V unless mfg specifically gives instructions that it's OK to use with motorcycle sized AGM.

there's a number of pulse chargers out there that costs $1,000+ with claims of bringing back to life PB that's been long dead. had a load of dead PB batteries headed for recycling.. but held off with plans of building my own pulse charger. alas it's turned into another project that got shelved

_cy_ screwed with this post 05-21-2013 at 10:06 AM
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Old 05-21-2013, 04:07 PM   #531
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I need to pick the brain of a battery nerd. I have a lithium camera battery that is extremely expensive to replace ($300) and I'm 99% sure that it can be rebuild for under $70.

I've talked with my local misc. battery dealer and they were not too helpful as I don't think they know too much about Li-ion battery packs. The battery pack is 7.4v 1.95Ah. The guts of it are 2 Panasonic CGA103450A in series with a balancing PCB. I've found a source for the individual batteries, but can I reuse the PCB? What else should I know before attempting this sort of rebuild?

I've got a few other questions too. Feel free to PM me since this is a bit OT for this thread.

Thanks.
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Old 05-21-2013, 04:16 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by brianjonesphoto View Post
I need to pick the brain of a battery nerd. I have a lithium camera battery that is extremely expensive to replace ($300) and I'm 99% sure that it can be rebuild for under $70.

I've talked with my local misc. battery dealer and they were not too helpful as I don't think they know too much about Li-ion battery packs. The battery pack is 7.4v 1.95Ah. The guts of it are 2 Panasonic CGA103450A in series with a balancing PCB. I've found a source for the individual batteries, but can I reuse the PCB? What else should I know before attempting this sort of rebuild?

I've got a few other questions too. Feel free to PM me since this is a bit OT for this thread.

Thanks.
don't mind helping at all .. first get digging at chinese suppliers to see if anyone offers that particular battery. before attempting to rebuild. $300 for about $20 worth of prismatic cells outrageous...

2 AH 7.4v is a two cell lithium cobalt battery ... 103450 are prismatic cells .. your BMS should be reusable. there's loads of battery companies that specialize in rebuilding older Lithium cobalt packs.

post a picture of pack, model number and what it fits...
deal extreme is an reputable company to deal with http://dx.com/s/battery
have been buying from them for 5+ years


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Old 05-21-2013, 05:35 PM   #533
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Here's the photos











I can't exactly what the PCB is, but i think it's a simple safety circuit. The battery is soldered to another PCB that i believe takes care of the charge monitoring. Since I don't know exactly what the PCB does would it be better to rebuild this pack than get a prebuild one? The last thing I want to do is damage the camera this battery goes to.
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:07 PM   #534
_cy_ OP
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Originally Posted by brianjonesphoto View Post
Here's the photos











I can't exactly what the PCB is, but i think it's a simple safety circuit. The battery is soldered to another PCB that i believe takes care of the charge monitoring. Since I don't know exactly what the PCB does would it be better to rebuild this pack than get a prebuild one? The last thing I want to do is damage the camera this battery goes to.
unlikely you will damage camera battery goes into. BMS doesn't seem to be hurt .. if you carefully replace with identical batteries, it's not that difficult.

main job of PCB is make sure voltage delivered to cell doesn't exceed 4.2v or go below 3.0v. greatest danger of using lithium cobalt cells occurs during charging, not during use. if 3.7v li-ion cell goes little as 1/2v over 4.2v .. thermal runaway (explosion) is a real possibility.

connections that needs special equipment are straps that's spot welded. don't attempt to solder, unless you do it all the time, odds are battery will be damaged.

if you don't feel comfortable doing this, there's several companies that rebuilds batteries. old BMS and OEM connectors will be only parts reused. I'd be surprised it costs was much over $60 for a turnkey rebuild.

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Old 05-21-2013, 09:18 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post

if you don't feel comfortable doing this, there's several companies that rebuilds batteries. old BMS and OEM connectors will be only parts reused. I'd be surprised it costs was much over $60 for a turnkey rebuild.
Could you name a few. My googlefu didn't come up with any.

Thanks
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:50 PM   #536
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Could you name a few. My googlefu didn't come up with any.

Thanks
here's one to get you started ... note I have not used these folks, so don't take this as an endorsement. but they've got components you need and they make up custom packs.

http://www.all-battery.com/custommadepackforms.aspx
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:55 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by brianjonesphoto View Post
I need to pick the brain of a battery nerd. I have a lithium camera battery that is extremely expensive to replace ($300) and I'm 99% sure that it can be rebuild for under $70.

I've talked with my local misc. battery dealer and they were not too helpful as I don't think they know too much about Li-ion battery packs. The battery pack is 7.4v 1.95Ah. The guts of it are 2 Panasonic CGA103450A in series with a balancing PCB. I've found a source for the individual batteries, but can I reuse the PCB? What else should I know before attempting this sort of rebuild?

I've got a few other questions too. Feel free to PM me since this is a bit OT for this thread.

Thanks.
Speaking of Batt. stores, I stopped in at Batteries Plus and asked them if they were carrying Lith. batteries yet for motorcycles ? Their answer was... never heard of em. You've got to be kidding me
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:50 AM   #538
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Speaking of Batt. stores, I stopped in at Batteries Plus and asked them if they were carrying Lith. batteries yet for motorcycles ? Their answer was... never heard of em. You've got to be kidding me
yup you've got battery folks with 20+ years of experience. but catch is all that experience is with lead acid. NOT Li-ion, which includes lithium cobalt, Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) and a slew of other chemistries.

there's still a LOT of folks that think our motorcycle li-ion batteries could blow up like Boeing 787 li-ion batteries. some are worried enough to construct an insulating box for their motorcycle LiFePO4 battery.

reality is LiFePO4 batteries are inherently stable vs lithium cobalt are inherently unstable and require all sorts of safeties to keep from going into thermal runaway (explosion). little as 1/2v over 4.2v could cause lithium cobalt battery to go into thermal runaway (explosion)

greatest danger from lithium cobalt batteries occur during charging .. not during use. vs LiFePO4 are inherently stable and require wild abuse to cause it to catch on fire.

a common failure mode for all batteries is if/when rectifier/regulator fails on a permanent magnet charging system (almost all modern bikes) 17v+ will be delivered to your battery. any 12v battery if charged at 17v+ long enough will kill it. this includes PB and LiFePO4.

an uncommon failure mode is a dead short .. grounding out a positive cable on any battery will not be good. LiFePO4 batteries has extremely low internal resistance. extra care must be to avoid dead shorts. LiFePO4 battery could get hot enough to meld under violent discharge and will easily generate heat equal to arc welding.

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Old 05-22-2013, 10:49 AM   #539
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Pissed Shorai and extreme heat conditions?

I'm considering a Shorai in a project bike where it would be hidden in an enclosure of some sort. My concern is I live in Phoenix area and the temps can be extreme. I could be idling on the freeway with 110-116 ambient and radiant from the concrete/asphalt above that. I've actually had to pull to the shoulder and get off because rising heat was burning me.
Any data on the long term affects of heat?
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Old 05-22-2013, 12:07 PM   #540
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I'm considering a Shorai in a project bike where it would be hidden in an enclosure of some sort. My concern is I live in Phoenix area and the temps can be extreme. I could be idling on the freeway with 110-116 ambient and radiant from the concrete/asphalt above that. I've actually had to pull to the shoulder and get off because rising heat was burning me.
Any data on the long term affects of heat?
edit out most of your yellow and special sizing .. all but impossible to read on my monitor.

here's a datasheet from A123 which gives temp operating range. but Shorai uses prismatic cells. don't think they give out data sheets on their cells.

normally motorcycle LiFePO4 mfg have factored highest heat into their batteries.

for cylindrical A123 26650 cells:
Operating Temperature
-30C to 55C = -22f to 131f
Storage Temperature
-40C to 60C
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