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Old 08-17-2013, 11:49 AM   #661
Global Rider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
apologies for for putting out what many will consider too much detail.
Too much detail is not the issue Cy. I work/test/evaluate products in a defense lab and deal with batteries, chargers, etc.

Tell me why I should switch to a Li-Ion battery when my everyday flooded lead acid battery starts every single time in a 9-year period. Will the Li-Ion battery last 2 times as long...18 years?

And since the average North American can shed 20+ pounds, I am not worried about weight savings either. On an F1 car or MotoGP bike, that is another story.

BTW, Joel Wiseman never did answer my questions a few pages back. ???
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Old 08-17-2013, 12:04 PM   #662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Global Rider View Post
Too much detail is not the issue Cy. I work/test/evaluate products in a defense lab and deal with batteries, chargers, etc.

Tell me why I should switch to a Li-Ion battery when my everyday flooded lead acid battery starts every single time in a 9-year period. Will the Li-Ion battery last 2 times as long...18 years?

And since the average North American can shed 20+ pounds, I am not worried about weight savings either. On an F1 car or MotoGP bike, that is another story.

BTW, Joel Wiseman never did answer my questions a few pages back. ???
you shouldn't ... FLA certainly are not going away anytime soon. facts are any long life claims for new technologies are just that .. claims until the test of time takes place.

two biggest drawback to FLA are higher self discharge rates and losing acid if/when your bike gets thumped.

so if you are the type person that rides consistently all year and/or don't mind keeping your FLA topped off. And odds of thumping your bike is nil .. then by all means FLA works fine and will continue to to do.

but for most folks advantages of AGM out weight what little costs difference to FLA. low self discharge means storing AGM over winter requires no charger/tender maintenance. provided there's no parasitic drain. AGM also means no chance of dumping acid.

for most folks AGM is the better choice ... but there's a rather large group of folks that think advantages of LiFePO4 outweigh costs $$$ differences.

just like AGM to FLA, when costs differences between LiFePO4 and PB gets closer and closer. adoption rates will skyrocket.

_cy_ screwed with this post 08-17-2013 at 12:10 PM
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Old 08-19-2013, 01:17 PM   #663
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checking in with Antigravity Batteries Micro-Start test progress ...

odds are this multi-function power supply with jump start ... will be used to power all sorts of electronic goodies, long before a jump start will be needed.

been flogging Micro-Start by charging all sorts of electronic devices. been running iphone all week on Micro-Start alone. Flashlight has been ran every night for hours at a time. so far Micro-Start has delivered as promised.

one minor problem to report .. the white USB adapter for iphone worked a few times, then refused to push in all the way... not a big deal since I've got several USB iphone adapters hanging around.

note USB adapter is an Apple one, which is probably the best one to use with iphone.
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Old 08-19-2013, 09:58 PM   #664
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This AG PPS intrigues me to no end....I look forward to a week or two worth of smaller device charging and then putting the jump start feature to work....

of course, then the ability to re-charge and repeat.....
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Old 08-20-2013, 12:28 AM   #665
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Here's a charging combo that should interest Adv folks.. USB output on Micro-Start supports Garmin Montana ...

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Old 08-20-2013, 04:33 AM   #666
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I just ordered a XP-1 for an upcoming trip. It is back ordered for a week.
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:05 PM   #667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NZSHAKER View Post
I have one of these cheap and easy to hook up and at a glance you can see if charging system is working

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Waterproo...item2a2f519c0d

And here is a cheap multi meter

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mini-LCD-...item4d09a88501
cheap electrical meters work fine ... but assume they are inaccurate until proven otherwise.

ez to calibrate by checking a stable DC output with a known to be correct meter like say Fluke 87V. which are the standard of the industry and easy to find. any HVAC supplier will have one to test with.

take a new 3v primary lithium cell .. measure with a new Fluke... then measure with your cheap meter. that will tell exact how far off or accurate your cheap meter is ..
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:34 AM   #668
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Just received from Earth-X the latest generation of LiFePo4. with what promises to be the most advanced LiFePo4 motorcycle battery yet. it's the first Motorcycle battery with internal balancing, overcharge and under discharge protection using MOFETS rated to 600amps.

More to come ...

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Old 08-23-2013, 02:08 PM   #669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shov3BR View Post
I've been around and around with batteries trying to find something I liked but didn't post on this thread before since there isn't anything that I can offer other than personal preference.

Here's my three battery saga:

1) I ran a Shorai on my Europe/Central Asia ride. I forgot to disconnect it when I shipped the bike to the UK (don't tell the airline). It was dead flat when it arrived and common wisdom said it shouldn't have been able to be recharged. I didn't have my Shorai charger so I just jump started it and rode off into the sunset counting on the KTM's charging system to charge it. It worked fine throughout the ride (8,000+ miles).

2) The bike sat again for a long time when we moved from CA to OK. Again, the Shorai was dead flat. This time I couldn't get the Shorai charger to bring it back to life. I thought what the heck, it's junk anyway, I'll try kicking the snot out of it with a 6A automotive charger. That got its attention. It came back to life and was then able to complete the charge with the Shorai charger.
3) Wasn't happy with having to drop the skid plate to access the battery for charging so here's where I went from there going from Shorai to Anti-Gravity to Earth-X:
Here's a link to my posts on the topic:

http://advrider.com/forums/showpost....postcount=7888

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...postcount=8040

Ran the Earth-X on my recent Arctic Circle ride. No problems whatsoever.



-Shov
excellent feedback .. Earth-X makes one fine LiFePO4 battery! with internal cell balancing, most any PB battery charger will work. your picture shows an EarthX ETX24c (6.3AH actual @ 1amp drain)

latest gen of Earth-X with MOSFET protection from overcharge and under discharge. your battery is protected from overcharge if/when your rectifier/regulator fails and sends 18v to 40v to battery at say 30amps, essentially killing it in short order. this will not happen with new gen Earth-X LiFePO4 with MOSFET overcharge protection.

one common problem with some modern bikes is the relatively large parasitic drain. if left without riding and/or battery charge upkeep. LiFePO4 or any other battery goes dead from sitting. just that with smaller actual AH LiFePO4 reserve capacities... draining to dead is more of a problem with LiFePO4.

Earth-X is the first LiFePO4 motorcycle battery that I'm aware of to offer under discharge protection. when voltage drops below a set volt. internal MOSFETS will disconnect main current buss from cells.

this is a HUGE engineering feat! most LiFePO4 batteries will peak at 375+ amps. Motorcycle starters can draw 250+ continuous amp at 25f and below. Earth-X has over rated their MOSFETS to survive 600amps.


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Old 08-23-2013, 02:39 PM   #670
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Originally Posted by Ricky Chuck View Post
Not cheap (249 for the etx24c) but if it would slide in the empty spot in front of the current battery location (swap my horn into that spot), and I could remove it when needed, that would be worth it

http://earthxmotorsports.com/product...-stone/etx24c/
ETX 24c is an outstanding LiFePO4 battery and would do starting duties without problems in most conditions. but it gets cold in OKC and some of us ride all year. some on extended trips to remote locations in cold weather.

BMW recommends a 19AH Gel for R1150R (GS), which I don't recommend due to special lower charging requirements of Gel.

my recommendations is to go with 19H AGM unless saving weight is more important than saving $$. if decide benefits of saving 10+lb is worth the $$$ ... go with ETX24 (6.3AH actual) for fair weather use. for adventure duties to parts unknown, including starting at below 30f .. go with ETX36 (13AH actual).

ETX36 is what I'm currently running in R80G/S as part of a long term test. starting duties on an airhead are much more severe than R1150GS in lower temps, say at 25f.

Shorai LFX36 (13AH actual) has also proved itself for cold weather starts 25f and colder on R80G/S in Oklahoma weather.


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Old 08-24-2013, 12:44 PM   #671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockwell View Post
I have a Battery Tender Junior and a voltmeter with me.

A lady in town offered to take the battery home with her to charge overnight (we are tenting and had no electrical outlet available). She brought the battery back this morning and said it was fully-charged. I installed it and tried to start, but there wasn't enough cranking power. I placed it on the charger after because, since I hadn't personally charged it the night before, I wanted to make sure I had a fully-charged battery.

After a few hours, the battery tender indicated fully-charged. I attempted to start, but there wasn't enough cranking power.

I have a Lithium-Iron battery - Shorai.

I am suspecting a bad battery since it didn't crank over with it fully-charged, but I will charge it again, and measure the fully-charged voltage. If it doesn't start, I'll need to get a boost and, when I do, I'll measure the output of the rectifier regulator. I'll have to look at the wiring diagram, but I guess this will be applied directly to the battery terminals when the bike is running?

In the meantime, if it is a bad battery, is it safe for the rest of the motorcycle to get a boost while we try to get to Reykjavik to get a new battery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockwell View Post
Connections are tight. I just fully charged the battery. Voltage read 14.25V. Tried to start and it just didn't have the cranking power. The battery voltage now reads 13.2V. I wasn't able to monitor the battery voltage when attempting to start since I couldn't hold the leads and start the bike at the same time, but I am guessing that the voltage is dropping really low when starting.

Bike is able to start with a boost and will run fine.

Looks like we're heading back down south to Reykjavik to look for a new battery. :( Could be worse.

This battery was fine until it got off the plane from New York. Could the cold during shipment have had any effect on the battery?
more basic info please ... what model KTM? what model Shorai? need night time/day temperatures?

14.25v indicates a fully charged LiFePO4 battery. voltage drop to 13.3v range after one start is perfectly normal. if your Shorai battery will not start your bike at moderate temperatures, it fails the load test. if your bike starts every time with booster cables, then your starter is fine. are your battery terminals corroded? what condition are your battery cables on bike?

LiFePO4 performance like any PB battery drops severely when temp drops. difference is actual amp hour reserve of LiFePO4 will be lower than PB. stated AH on Shorai is not actual, but expressed in PB/EQ. one of the most common reasons for LiFePO4 failures is under sizing.

my recommendation for KTM doing Adventure duties far from home in cold conditions is to size LiFePO4 battery by actual amp hour. if say your original AGM battery was 11AH ... the correct LiFePO4 should also be 11AH actual or larger.

there's been all sorts of negative feedback about Battery Tender Jr killing LiFePO4 batteries. almost any PB charger can be used to charge LiFePO4 if voltage is monitored. don't use any PB charger that charges above 14.6v. now to confuse issues... during bulk phase of charge voltage is not critical. finishing voltage is critical, if left on charger for extended periods, like months at a time. short exposure to higher voltages usually will not hurt.

EarthX currently offers the most advanced LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries. with internal cell balancing, overcharge and under discharge protections. most any PB charger can be used. most important is EarthX cranking performance under cold conditions.

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Old 08-25-2013, 06:15 AM   #672
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockwell View Post
I've never had the battery tender on the battery for longer than over night.

I tested the start relay several days ago. I disconnected it and used some spare wire to jumper directly to the battery terminals. It seemed to operate without any problems.

I haven't measure the voltage with the bike running at all. I'll do that today after we get a boost and the engine is running. By mid-range, do you mean around 5000 rpm or so?

I haven't had time to read through your other thread on batteries, so I don't know what this means exactly. Does this mean the battery cells are not of equal voltages? How would I balance them?

I'm just going to double-check the ground connections, but, If everything runs fine when boosted from another battery, I guess I'd have to conclude that the battery is shot. I will have to use whatever is available here.
by mid rpm meaning engine spinning substantially over idle. you've got a permanent magnet type charging system. so it's putting out almost full output even at lower rpm.

if you've only had battery tender jr on for short charge periods. unlikely charger/tender damaged your Shorai LFX18. overnight resting voltage 14.25v indicates a fully charged state.

LiFePO4 will drop to about 13.3v for most of it's operating cycle. when it drops to 12.85v, it's got about 15% remaining. li-ion batteries will put out full power until almost dead. then output will drop drastically. don't go below 12.85v or life of battery will be reduced.

you've got balance ports on side of Shorai LFX18 to be used with an RC type charger with balance leads. unfortunately most folks don't buy one of those type chargers. on top of seldom being used.

the RC crowd understands need for balance chargers for li-on cells. which are balanced charged each and every time. almost all consumer devices that use multiple li-ion cells will contain a BMS or battery management system.

Motorcycle LiFePO4 batteries are one of the few application not to include a BMS that internally balances li-ion cells. except for EarthX which has used internal cell balancing right from the beginning.

LiFePO4 cells are matched when mfg. the higher the cell count, the harder it is to achieve a set of cells that match closely. it's impossible to match perfectly everytime.

as cells age they will go out of balance. this is why LiFePO4 batteries with internal cell balancing are better.

when you jump start .. attach positive clamp directly to battery terminal. ground clamp can go to engine. you need to find out if relay or something else is causing your problems, not the battery.

positive cable goes directly to starter .. when jumper is applied, increases voltage to solenoid wire, starting bike. you could also have a bad starter.

yes if bike starts everytime with booster cables attached directly to battery. then your Shorai LFX18 is no longer serviceable. if cause is due to cell unbalance drastically reducing capacity. a balance charger might bring it back to life. but that's no help to someone in the middle of no-where.

Shorai LFX18 is way too small for your 990 Adv. go with an AGM for rest of your trip.

this what can happen when cells age and get out of balance without an internal BMS

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Old 08-26-2013, 02:52 PM   #673
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While reading the September issue of Cycle World I notice an ad for a lithium iron battery from Detran "Battery Tender".
I wonder who makes it for them ?
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Old 08-26-2013, 03:07 PM   #674
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Old 08-26-2013, 04:43 PM   #675
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Originally Posted by frogy View Post
While reading the September issue of Cycle World I notice an ad for a lithium iron battery from Detran "Battery Tender".
I wonder who makes it for them ?
no clue about Deltran batteries, they could be really good or junk ... HUGE amount of differences on how LiFePO4 batteries are put together and what type of internal BMS are used. if any ..

LiFePO4 is in it's infancy .. motorcycle LiFePO4 batteries are the world's first successful adoption of consumer li-ion batteries. where cost/benefits of LiFePO4 is standing on it's own merits.

unlike lead acid mfg who are severely constrained by EPA reg's. anyone can start a LiFePO4 motorcycle battery company in their garage.

look for number of LiFePo4 mfg to explode ... IMHO in the very near future LiFePO4 will come as OEM equipment. if I had to make a guess, it would be KTM first, who already spec's marginal size AH AGM in it's chase for lightest weight possible.

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