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Old 04-15-2012, 09:01 AM   #181
Gangplank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
The Compufire 5540 is the most popular 3 phase series regulator, lots of people are using them on Aprilias, Triumphs and other bikes with problematic stators.

I think a guy on ADV from Venezuela bought one and was going to install it on his F800GS that kept burning up his rewound stators? Not sure what happened to him.
Compu-Fire 55402?
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Old 04-15-2012, 09:56 AM   #182
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Yes.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:40 PM   #183
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Like the other series pass manufacturers there is a lack of hard facts & figures on spec, I would want to know more before considering any of them unfortunately. Perhaps it is time to ask them all to provide further information
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:12 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrowhawk View Post
One man'e experience with Ballistic. http://advrider.com/forums/showpost....&postcount=421

It would be interesting to know the cause.
Well, he states it happened while cranking, so that would mean the separator failed and battery shorted internally.

The pressure release valve SHOULD have vented but am guessing this one was defective or Ballistic soldered it shut accidentally while bonding intercell connectors.

If ballistic did solder the vent closed, this is a big mistake, but can't tell from the picture though I could certainly tell if I had the failed cell in my hand.

In either case, this isn't a big deal to me. the case melted where the cell exited and this doesn't happen in an explosion, so if you had your hand physically on the spot on the battery, you would have felt it get super hot and moved your hand.

Even if you didn't, the energy when an A123 26650 cell bursts isn't that great. You might get a bruise and you wouldn't want it to hit you in the eye.

Heres what a lead acid battery looks like while exploding, though it can look much worse if it is an AGM and though most explosions are during charging for lead/acid and LiFePO4 batteries, both can explode during rapid discharge as well.

http://youtu.be/d_TnsHu2u4c

http://youtu.be/jwWwCZF6FW0

Neither has that scary of explosion energy, but with the lead/acid battery, acid goes everywhere, including with AGM batteries. Lacking a 15 minute water supply to rinse your eyes, you will go blind if the acid gets in there.
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:24 PM   #185
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[QUOTE=WayneC1;18453413]Joel, good testing, you take my pedantic title hands down, It was needed to see how they stacked up in the real world

Like you I thought the PR claims were pushing the limit too far in the push to get to market with these new battery types,
The owner of AntiGravity impressed me though with at times brutal honesty

Re regulators, it is not just the F8's running these regulators, they are fitted to most of the F&G 650 singles as well, part No's below
(only the X's with smaller alternator are different)

I am familiar with the issues the singles had with that voltage regulator and from what I could gather, see, and measure, owing to mounting style and location the regulator overheated in single application.

It runs a full 30C cooler on the twins due to effective heat sinking to the frame and good radiation and airflow, so has not been an issue on the twins. Still, its voltage setting sucks for AGM use and if I still had a K7X bike, I would replace it UNLESS it is the apparent new one with SC marking.

As for series regulation, no manufacture is going to be able to talk me into or out of one. I can't endorse or recommend against a specific model unless I am looking at its output through my own scope with a harmonics analyzer attached to the 3 phase side.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:20 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tirespin View Post
Joel, thanks for all the testing, interesting reading. I'm looking forward to more results with the Antigravity.

My main concern is the risk of a full drainage situation. I have had lead/acic motorcycle batteries (and car/boat batteries) drained very low, and with a jumpstart I can ride home, and recharge if needed. I assume the life of the battery is affected, but they're "good enough" for a good while after that, and there was no meltdown or smokeshow.

What is the real world risk with one of these? If I leave the key on and walk away, and need a jumpstart when I get back, will the battery be fried? Will there be a smoke show? Or best yet, a firework show?

Cyborg, can't these batteries be mounted any which way you want? No liquids, so they don't need to be "right side up". If so, the 16 cell battery will fit the KTM if it's mounted on it's side. Antigravity says "4.25″ Long x 3.25″ Wide x 5.25″ Tall", rotate it and you have 5.25 Long x 3.25 Wide x 4.25 Tall, which is smaller than the Yuasa. You may need to extend a cable.
I sure like a good fireworks display! But so far so good.

For both LiFePO4, and Lead/Acid, it really depends on just how low you go. Running a Shorai LFX21 down to the point the bike wouldn't crank damaged it heavily the very first time to the tune one cell now has half the capacity.

As for the Antigravity YTX12-16, I have run it down by cranking intermittently (10 seconds) and leaving the key on till it will no longer crank the bike. Not sure what this is doing for longevity, but have since tested and gotten 8.3 amp hour out of it at a 200mA rate to voltage of 12.86 which should be about 20% SOC when it is only specs 9.2 amp hour, so it is certainly still got original capacity.

Voltage drop is still the same under 200 and 400 amp load test, so in the short term, it has taken no damage.

This is better performance then you will get from even a Deka or Odyssey AGM both of which will show a performance decrease after a 80% draw down unless you use a fancy battery charger, in which case both will retain nearly perfect performance though with some hit on longevity.

If we are talking dead dead, as in less then one terminal volt, as in key on for two days, I expect the LiFePO4 battery will become a brick.

The same is true of the vast majority of AGM batteries and all flooded batteries, though once again, you can recover a lead calcium or lead/lead battery such as Deka or Odyssey from such, but not from a jump, you will need a specialized battery charger that will push upwards of 21 volts till acceptance begins in earnest.


For this and other reasons, I would love to see a BMS for under voltage protection of LiFePO4 batteries but only if such can be made reliably.

But for just leaving the headlight on for an afternoon or cranking till dead, yes, the Antigravity has takes it so far and is going to take some more before I am satisfied.

As for Shorai, no, it doesn't hold up to low voltage. Unfortunately I didn't record it, or rather thought I did but had camera in "demo" more with no sd card, so have no video. If someone wants to send me me another Shorai for the sole purpose of bricking it, I will record the failure :)

I do have video of all for "run to flat" sessions and will post once I have done it 10 times, if it survives that long, and post the video.

In the mean time.....

Has anyone used up ten minutes and one second watching this video?



Having searched youtube, I am the only crazy fracker that has abused batteries and starters like this to get real data beyond advertising bunk.

Several hours in the garage pressing buttons, 10 minutes of adding in fancy text, and I only get 45 views and not a single thumb on the youtube site :(

A teen girl with 80's hair smokes a cigarette and gets 30,000 views


Some ducks get blow away by wind and get 24,000,000 views!

. I single handedly stop global warming, reduce federal taxes, and smoke not merely a cigarette but 3 whole Shorai batteries and only get 45 views!

What if I get a teen girl to smoke a cigarette in the background of the video, or steal some footage of blowing ducks, will that help

Show some love on my youtube page
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:30 PM   #187
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It is s tough life, people want smoke & fire & frivolity not serious genuine testing, now if you put up scary smoking batteries they would appear everywhere with people expressing doom & gloom for anything new or innovative
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:32 PM   #188
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Mate don't panic I watched it all, but I'm not a UTube mamber so the love will have to be by proxy
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:29 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike.C View Post
Mate don't panic I watched it all, but I'm not a UTube mamber so the love will have to be by proxy
Alright, I feel better, besides, even though she's got 80's hair, the smoking girl is kinda cute, but ducks? Give me a break, they are loud, shit everywhere and will take a finger off as you feed them.
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:18 AM   #190
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ultrabatt

Hi Joel

Any feedback / input on these & their claims compared to the rest?

http://www.ultrabatt.com/#

rgds

Gavin
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:05 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by GAW View Post
Hi Joel

Any feedback / input on these & their claims compared to the rest?

http://www.ultrabatt.com/#

rgds

Gavin
Almost no information on that web site, but gorgeous graphics!

Looks like 4 and 8 cell 26650 LiFePO4 cell batteries speced (the specs they do give) more honestly then most.

I'd like to know what they mean by the battery being "micro-chipped". It MAY be that they have a partial or complete BMS which is good or bad depending on how reliable it is and weather it runs the battery down rapidly.

Thats all I can tell you about it without having one in front of me.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:25 AM   #192
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Happy dance, 74 views and 6 thumbs up on my "cranking stress test" video

But even better, I tried the Youtube beta "transcribe audio" feature and the translation had me rolling on the floor laughing.

Youtube "google transcribe"

I'm going to record an alternate audio track to conform with Youtubes transcript for entertainment value
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:13 PM   #193
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Joel, Thanks for posting in cuttle's thread.
Thanks for posting this thread.
Thanks for the cautionary tale about LA (led/acid)batteries.
I have seen an LA battery blow up in the face of a guy who was bending over it at the time. NOT pretty. He would not have ever been able to treat himself with a water hose because he was on the ground writhing in pain. Luckily for him the owner of the gas station saw it happen too and came running with a hose very quickly. I never looked at a battery the same again. This is only one of three stories I have about LA batteries. I'll spare you the rest.
Keep sparks away from LA batteries at all costs. Not an easy undertaking, but worth it.

I am going to keep the balistic (oh the irony) I bought and hope for the best.

Subscribed to your thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
Well, he states it happened while cranking, so that would mean the separator failed and battery shorted internally.

The pressure release valve SHOULD have vented but am guessing this one was defective or Ballistic soldered it shut accidentally while bonding intercell connectors.

If ballistic did solder the vent closed, this is a big mistake, but can't tell from the picture though I could certainly tell if I had the failed cell in my hand.

In either case, this isn't a big deal to me. the case melted where the cell exited and this doesn't happen in an explosion, so if you had your hand physically on the spot on the battery, you would have felt it get super hot and moved your hand.

Even if you didn't, the energy when an A123 26650 cell bursts isn't that great. You might get a bruise and you wouldn't want it to hit you in the eye.

Heres what a lead acid battery looks like while exploding, though it can look much worse if it is an AGM and though most explosions are during charging for lead/acid and LiFePO4 batteries, both can explode during rapid discharge as well.

http://youtu.be/d_TnsHu2u4c

http://youtu.be/jwWwCZF6FW0

Neither has that scary of explosion energy, but with the lead/acid battery, acid goes everywhere, including with AGM batteries. Lacking a 15 minute water supply to rinse your eyes, you will go blind if the acid gets in there.
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Dang ..That thing is huge!!! Jax
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:48 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by JaxObsessed View Post
Joel, Thanks for posting in cuttle's thread.
Thanks for posting this thread.
Thanks for the cautionary tale about LA (led/acid)batteries.
I have seen an LA battery blow up in the face of a guy who was bending over it at the time. NOT pretty. He would not have ever been able to treat himself with a water hose because he was on the ground writhing in pain. Luckily for him the owner of the gas station saw it happen too and came running with a hose very quickly. I never looked at a battery the same again. This is only one of three stories I have about LA batteries. I'll spare you the rest.
Keep sparks away from LA batteries at all costs. Not an easy undertaking, but worth it.

I am going to keep the balistic (oh the irony) I bought and hope for the best.

Subscribed to your thread.
Hey man, thanks :)

It's interesting how much concern there is for things that go bang or shoot fire. I wasn't there, but from having intentionally blown the same kind of cell up that failed in your battery, i'm willing to bet you could have had your hand in front of it and got off with a bruise. Not supposed to happen and made the battery useless for starting, but probably not that dangerous.

By contrast liquids that burn with flames or acid scare the shit out of me. Even jets of flame from lithium / cobalt batteries such as laptops often have don't scare me. If a battery jets fire at you, move rapidly away. It is instinctual anyway. I for one always jump back when something starts spewing fire at me.

Have burning gasoline splash you or battery acid jet into your face, serious bad news!

My two best guesses for your failed battery.

1: Theres a pressure vent in those batteries on the side of the tit at the positive end, perhaps it got soldered shut by Ballistic.

2: I know Shorai cases aren't waterproof and judging by Ballistics warranty exclusion, their battery may not be waterproof either. A123's as well as any other LiFePO4 cell I can think of will become unstable if they take on water. Water damages the separator inside the cell and they will short circuit internally, but as for the bang, I can't explain that as the pressure vent should have opened.

One question.... How much smoke accompanied that Ballistic battery failure? The bigger of the Shorai batteries I killed made a column of smoke visible for a mile. Not much heat and no flames, but DANG was that an impressive smoke show :)
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:25 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
What if I get a teen girl to smoke a cigarette in the background of the video, or steal some footage of blowing ducks, will that help
Definitely. Regardless, there are plenty of us just interested in the facts.

There are a couple of features with ADVRider that probably have a negative impact on hits here. I usually hang out in thumpers and wouldn't have even known all this good battery love was in progress without one person there posting a link to this thread. Then, when I went back to catch up on the battery news I couldn't even find parallel universe. By dumb net luck I selected "Bikes" from the main page and found the five sub-forums I didn't even know existed after many years on the site.

This thread would no doubt get a lot more action if it were in equipment instead of somewhat hidden in PU.

Thanks so much for going to all the work and coming up with some definitive information. I am in the market to replace the cheap NAPA battery I found in a small logging town a couple of years ago when mine failed in the middle of a backcountry trip. I was leaning towards a lifepo as much for the size as the weight or performance. I can fit an Antigravity sideways in my battery tray leaving room for a spare tube in the extra space. With the information you've provided here I am confident in getting small size, light weight, and good performance. Thanks again.

Sparrowhawk screwed with this post 04-17-2012 at 04:32 PM
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