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Old 08-27-2012, 10:40 AM   #226
tdcarter
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Hi Joel,
Thanks for running the numbers and showing the results. I've played with a few battery packs and have a question, now that the undersized/overpriced z14s sized AGM in my ST1300 is dying I am considering replacing it with a LiFe pack homebuilt. So are you finding any battery management or protection circuit inside the boxes that ya smoked? I know from the reading that there is no balancing function going on, but any protection at all internally to these? Undervoltage cut-off? Are they just dumping the full voltage back into the 4 serial chain of the battery and letting the individual cells block and bleed off what it does not want.

I think I can just squeeze 8 pieces of 38120's into a box and then shoehorn that into the bike. Then I was contemplating on trying to fit a BMS in there too... but then thought that would over complicate things trying to find or build one that could handle the amperage... or maybe use a small BMS for when the bike is running, place a solenoid/ or low volt contactor to bypass the BMS during cranking. The 38120s are 10ahr, 100 amp surge.

Thoughts? Opinions? Anyone?
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Old 08-31-2012, 03:03 PM   #227
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Thanks

Thanks for doing all this testing Joel. I just hadn't given much attention to battery technology before so this is eye-opening.
I'm currently running a Shorai in my Super Enduro with no issues: This is under optimum conditions however; very warm weather, no moisture, well tuned bike.
I am going back to AGM technology (Odyssey), using the Shorai as a backup since it is so small and light (I'll just keep it in my tailbag with a pair of jumpers).

Great work on this though. Much appreciated.
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Old 08-31-2012, 10:08 PM   #228
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Question Why go back ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLH View Post
Thanks for doing all this testing Joel. I just hadn't given much attention to battery technology before so this is eye-opening.
I'm currently running a Shorai in my Super Enduro with no issues: This is under optimum conditions however; very warm weather, no moisture, well tuned bike.
I am going back to AGM technology (Odyssey), using the Shorai as a backup since it is so small and light (I'll just keep it in my tailbag with a pair of jumpers).

Great work on this though. Much appreciated.
My Odyssey has let me down three times this year and barely started it two other times . , if the Shorai is working save you money !

Thats why I am following this post ...
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Old 09-01-2012, 09:57 AM   #229
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Thanks Joel.
I figure you have saved me quite a few $$$ as with a near-dead Yuasa in the 950, I was going to pull the trigger on a couple of Shoria's for the 950 and the 525. Hopefully all manufacturers will improve their products in response to real-world feedback & competition.
Your effort here is what makes advrider great.
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Old 09-08-2012, 07:07 AM   #230
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Is there a post # with the summary of the testing?
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Old 09-08-2012, 01:23 PM   #231
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Post #113 has a load of info.
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Old 09-09-2012, 10:37 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Sydney Andy View Post
So .... an Antigravity YTZ10-12 for my XT600E ????????
Yes, but measure or have someone else measure how much parasitic current the XT600 draws key off, crunch the numbers to tell how long the battery will support this before needing charged. The 12 will start the XT600 even when it is almost dead, but going to zero% charged will harm or destroy the battery.

Unlike lead/acid batteries LiFePO4 batteries aren't damaged by leaving low, but going to zero will hurt them. Even the 8 cell will start that bike down to freezing, but the 12 will start it colder and a 16 may be required if the bikes going to sit off charge for a long time un-tethered to a charger.

Example. An F800GS draws 0.0023 amps with the key off. Of the bikes going to sit off charge for 90 days, the math goes like this: 0.0023 X 24 X 90 =4.968 amp hour. A 12 cell antigravity battery has an honest capacity of 7.8 amp hour, so that's fine. The 8 cell has a capacity of 5.2 amp hour, that is to close, it won't safely support 90 days off charge. A 16 cell has 10.4 amp hour, so you could get away with 6 months off charge.
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Old 09-10-2012, 08:17 AM   #233
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Howdy again folks,
I built a lithium pack for my bike, added a BMS system and got it wired up. But now the bike charging system seems to have some trouble settling down.

So I start the bike and everything is fine while the engine is running and the battery is soaking up some amperage and recharging. But once the battery is topped off and the BMS says I'm full I don't need anymore, my bike voltage starts jumping all over. It'll settle for a moment, but once RPM gets up again, the voltage can jump to 15+

Now the BMS will let battery feed power back out if the bike needs it. But it won't let the battery see any voltage over 14.8v. Not sure how the volated would even get to 14.8 to begin with, unless it is from the regulator not reacting fast enough?

Now I did try adding some additional load, threw a 45w bulb on the line. Same thing. I paralleled in a small 12v battery, and everything settles down. Sit's dead on between 14.1 and 14.2.

So if input voltage raises beyond 14.8 momentarily, and the battery pack is full charged, then I guess the bikes voltage regulator is basically not 'seeing' the battery as the BMS has put a stop to any higher voltage passing. So this leaves the regulator on it's own to hunt for a new voltage? So do I just need some more buffer? Like throw a large capacitor on the line, couple 10,000 mfd? Or is there more feedback needed for the voltage regulator to stabilize?

Thanks if you can offer any assistance.
T
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Old 09-12-2012, 05:22 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by guavadude View Post
Thanks Joel for doing this testing...I even went and watched the youtube vids to get your numbers up!

Unfortunately I haven't read the entire thread and I also didn't find it until after I purchased a Shorei LFX14L2 for my G650 single. So I figure I'm going to be a real world tester. It can't be any worse than the issues I've had with the stock battery and an AGM that lasted about 16 months. I also feel that if you want the technology and products to get better you have to support them a little in the early stages.

I'll chime back in after I've used it more but I want to say now that I'm blown away with how much better the bike feels from the weight difference. I thought it would be different but I didn't know it would make that much difference in the handling. It caught me off guard and I was over steering.

Even if it only lasts as long as non lithium battery, I think I'd throw the extra money at it just for how much better the bike feels. Granted this is weight taken right off at the gas tank, highest point on the bike. I don't think you'd notice much difference if the battery was under the seat, but for any bikes with faux tanks it's a win for sure.

my $.02

...now back to your regularly scheduled high tech testing
Most Shorais,IF PROPERLY SIZED and treated gently, will hold up fine. My issue is that for that kind of money I want extremely reliable and resistant to abuse.

I want to ride away from submerging my bike (after draining the air box). I want the bike to start up in negative temperatures, and I want the battery to crank and crank an engine that's broken without damaging the battery.

Shorai and all the other Chinese manufactured lifepo4 batteries will work fine for maybe 8 out of 10 riders who aren't hard on batteries. The other 2 can expect a long walk or a tow.
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Old 09-12-2012, 05:47 PM   #235
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I agree and prefer bombproof but I definitely fall in the mellow user category with the 650 thumper.
I'll check back in after more extensive use. It did great in CO this past week but the temps were mellow and I only dropped the bike a few times, fortunately not underwater!

Is there a post # where you summarize your findings and give recommendations or are you still testing?
I've read quite a bit of this thread and reviewed #113 but my head starts hurting after a few pages.
I'm not even sure what I was looking for in the videos!?

I will say it's nice not messing with the battery tender all the time....maybe the electricity savings from that will even out the price; the weight savings is awesome and the warranty is a year longer than the previous battery, but if you start your own line of batteries, I'm in!!
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Old 09-12-2012, 06:46 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdcarter View Post
Howdy again folks,
I built a lithium pack for my bike, added a BMS system and got it wired up. But now the bike charging system seems to have some trouble settling down.

So I start the bike and everything is fine while the engine is running and the battery is soaking up some amperage and recharging. But once the battery is topped off and the BMS says I'm full I don't need anymore, my bike voltage starts jumping all over. It'll settle for a moment, but once RPM gets up again, the voltage can jump to 15+

Now the BMS will let battery feed power back out if the bike needs it. But it won't let the battery see any voltage over 14.8v. Not sure how the volated would even get to 14.8 to begin with, unless it is from the regulator not reacting fast enough?

Now I did try adding some additional load, threw a 45w bulb on the line. Same thing. I paralleled in a small 12v battery, and everything settles down. Sit's dead on between 14.1 and 14.2.

So if input voltage raises beyond 14.8 momentarily, and the battery pack is full charged, then I guess the bikes voltage regulator is basically not 'seeing' the battery as the BMS has put a stop to any higher voltage passing. So this leaves the regulator on it's own to hunt for a new voltage? So do I just need some more buffer? Like throw a large capacitor on the line, couple 10,000 mfd? Or is there more feedback needed for the voltage regulator to stabilize?

Thanks if you can offer any assistance.
T
I would like to toss in this.... You are not supposed to run the bike with the R/R disconnected from the battery...... Not saying you are.... but if your battery pack disconnects after it's full..... then you are essentially doing just that....which is not good. You can try the big cap....... But I'm afraid after it too charges..... then your back to a no load situation.
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Old 09-13-2012, 02:15 AM   #237
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It would also help knowing what machine it is and the VR type, but it does sound like the BMS is disconnecting the battery and the VR cant keep the output voltage at a stable acceptable value, Oh the joys of development of new systems
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Old 09-13-2012, 09:49 AM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
I would like to toss in this.... You are not supposed to run the bike with the R/R disconnected from the battery...... Not saying you are.... but if your battery pack disconnects after it's full..... then you are essentially doing just that....which is not good. You can try the big cap....... But I'm afraid after it too charges..... then your back to a no load situation.
I have a few points to make here, (which are maybe wrong)
1) What is the problem if the V/R sees thin air? If no current is passing what would that hurt?
2) When the battery is off the V/R then where does the bike take energy from? The V/R or the disconnected battery? I assume that this can be arranged accordingly.
and
3) I think that if the battery goes off circuit when topped up (and bike runs on the V/R), then a capacitor on the V/R is a good idea as it will smooth out spikes.

Which brings this question....Is it a good idea (on V/R AND battery longevity grounds) to arrange an electrical system such as that the battery goes offline when reaching a certain voltage and a V/R -capacitor-voltage limiter combination takes over to run the electrics?
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Old 09-13-2012, 09:51 PM   #239
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Just a little more information on using a cap to smooth out the power.

Since my TW200 has a kick starter, I only needed the battery for the lights. Without the battery connected, the lights only sort of worked. They would only blink if I was just at the right RPM, and the head light would dim and flicker.
I wired in one of the car stereo caps. The huge ones about 2" around and 1 foot long. Almost didn't make a shred of difference. Same problems as before.

So I don't think a cap is going to cut it.

Most BMS systems tend to equalize the pack by creating a small load on the cells that are higher in voltage then the others. It should not be disconnecting the battery entirely.
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:31 AM   #240
ebrabaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mousitsas View Post
I have a few points to make here, (which are maybe wrong)
1) What is the problem if the V/R sees thin air? If no current is passing what would that hurt?
Stability of the R/R, as it is now floating, with no ground connection either.

2) When the battery is off the V/R then where does the bike take energy from? The V/R or the disconnected battery? I assume that this can be arranged accordingly.
Sorrry, but I am not understanding your question..... If you mean with the battery disconnected, what runs the bike. From what I have heard... The 8GS cannot be bump started, and run without the battery..... But I have not tried this. Normally in this case... you run the bike of the stator through the R/R, or as you call it V/R.

and
3) I think that if the battery goes off circuit when topped up (and bike runs on the V/R), then a capacitor on the V/R is a good idea as it will smooth out spikes.
Mind you, the original question was not regarding a lead acid battery, and they behave different when fully charged. The lead acid is still taking a small drain, but the smarter battery will " disconnect" itself until a charge is needed. There is a difference.


Which brings this question....Is it a good idea (on V/R AND battery longevity grounds) to arrange an electrical system such as that the battery goes offline when reaching a certain voltage and a V/R -capacitor-voltage limiter combination takes over to run the electrics?
A lead acid battery really never goes "off line" It might not accept a significant charge, but will always act like a Bath tub size capaciter, regarding stability.
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