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Old 05-30-2013, 09:48 AM   #331
RexBuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
RexBuck, the alternator only outputs a full 406 watts at 7500 rpm ( 14v 29 amps ), what regulator do you have in the machine ?
The regulator is the OEM that came with the bike. Don't know if they have changed that over time. My bike is a 2011.

The electrical output available is what is concerning me. I realize the alternator is rated for 406 watts but I came across a copy of some numbers Joel had put up previously measuring 378 watts output at 4500 - 7500 rpm.

However, the loads I'm putting on it are well below even that level and, even if all my gear is cranked up to the max, theoretically I should never be discharging my battery. My onboard voltmeter is saying that my voltage levels are now lower than they were 6 months before with the same loads. So, something has changed.
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Old 05-30-2013, 09:54 AM   #332
Treadless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RexBuck View Post
The regulator is the OEM that came with the bike. Don't know if they have changed that over time. My bike is a 2011.

The electrical output available is what is concerning me. I realize the alternator is rated for 406 watts but I came across a copy of some numbers Joel had put up previously measuring 378 watts output at 4500 - 7500 rpm.

However, the loads I'm putting on it are well below even that level and, even if all my gear is cranked up to the max, theoretically I should never be discharging my battery. My onboard voltmeter is saying that my voltage levels are now lower than they were 6 months before with the same loads. So, something has changed.


It could be something as simple as your "on board voltmeter" is not what it was. Double check it's accuracy first.
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Old 05-30-2013, 10:05 AM   #333
_cy_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RexBuck View Post
The regulator is the OEM that came with the bike. Don't know if they have changed that over time. My bike is a 2011.

The electrical output available is what is concerning me. I realize the alternator is rated for 406 watts but I came across a copy of some numbers Joel had put up previously measuring 378 watts output at 4500 - 7500 rpm.

However, the loads I'm putting on it are well below even that level and, even if all my gear is cranked up to the max, theoretically I should never be discharging my battery. My onboard voltmeter is saying that my voltage levels are now lower than they were 6 months before with the same loads. So, something has changed.
numbers you posted earlier are under 300 watts pegged out. most heated gear controllers use pulse width modulation. seldom are you using full rated output.

29 amp at 14v output is plenty to sustain loads you mentioned. resting voltage of 13.6V after sitting several days indicates your battery is getting fully charged before stopping.

in other words .. nothing is wrong .. ignore that silly red light .. once you get a volt meter installed and verify it's accuracy. so long as voltage meter remain above 13.8V or so ... current is flowing into battery slowly. unless battery in discharged condition, then 13.8v will push current into battery at faster rate.

voltage = pressure ... charging voltage must be higher than battery's voltage to push current into battery. 12v charging systems designed to support PB normally are 13.8v to 14.2v at mid rpm.

at max charge rate of 14.2v .. it's all but impossible to overcharge your LiFePO4 battery. which requires 14.6V to keep pushing current into battery to reach full charge.

clear as mud ... I know ...

_cy_ screwed with this post 05-30-2013 at 10:17 AM
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Old 05-30-2013, 06:12 PM   #334
RexBuck
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Went into town and had my multi-meter checked against a Fluke - my meter reads about 1% low. Checking the onboard flashy meter against the multi-meter and I get the early warning around 13.7 - 13.9v which you are saying is fine. It looks like I also had some readings as low as 13.5v when it was cold and at altitude (over 14,000 feet).

So, I'm not going to fret further about it for now. I still have a nigling voice in the back of my noggin wondering why it seems to be operating at a lower voltage now than before under similar conditions (temp, not altitude). Will be able to watch it closer with a proper onboard meter that has real numbers on it.
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:17 PM   #335
WayneC1
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Rexbuck, I can confirm the OEM VR will go low at low temps, happens with mine on the GS single, in one of the threads Joel posted that BMW updated VR spares stock with a higher output voltage one and we saw confirmation of that with pic's of a replacement one of the guys purchased, when they updated the VR on the production line we dont know
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:42 PM   #336
_cy_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RexBuck View Post
Went into town and had my multi-meter checked against a Fluke - my meter reads about 1% low. Checking the onboard flashy meter against the multi-meter and I get the early warning around 13.7 - 13.9v which you are saying is fine. It looks like I also had some readings as low as 13.5v when it was cold and at altitude (over 14,000 feet).

So, I'm not going to fret further about it for now. I still have a nigling voice in the back of my noggin wondering why it seems to be operating at a lower voltage now than before under similar conditions (temp, not altitude). Will be able to watch it closer with a proper onboard meter that has real numbers on it.
glad to hear your multi meter is now calibrated.

bottom line is regardless of what voltage your RR is putting out and what ever loads you are placing on charging system. if your LiFePo4 battery is showing 13.6v after sitting overnight. that battery is fully charged and your charging system is supporting loads just fine.
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:11 PM   #337
RexBuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
glad to hear your multi meter is now calibrated.

bottom line is regardless of what voltage your RR is putting out and what ever loads you are placing on charging system. if your LiFePo4 battery is showing 13.6v after sitting overnight. that battery is fully charged and your charging system is supporting loads just fine.
As long as the stator and regulator is hunky dorey, I'm good. I understand that while I'm riding and seeing 13.8 or so, I'm golden. What I need to understand is at what voltage that I see while I'm riding do I need to start turning off heated gear?
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Old 05-30-2013, 09:43 PM   #338
_cy_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RexBuck View Post
As long as the stator and regulator is hunky dorey, I'm good. I understand that while I'm riding and seeing 13.8 or so, I'm golden. What I need to understand is at what voltage that I see while I'm riding do I need to start turning off heated gear?
using chart below ... you really don't tap into LiFePO4's real AH capacity until voltage drops to 13.3v ... so any voltage above 13.6v will be in safe territory. at 13.6v not much current is flowing into battery with none coming out.

current will be flowing out of your battery below 13.3v continuous ... that's when you need to turn off heated gear. relax .. that's not going to happen so long as your charging system is working.

your system is rated for about 400watts .. max load is under 300watts and likely to be less than 250watts with heated gear not turned up to max. very seldom have I ran my heated gear on full blast for very long, that's riding at 20f ...

my R80G/S is running a 400watt upgraded alternator with EarthX ETX36 (14AH actual) or the largest LiFePO4 that will fit into space. but airheads need much higher amp hour capacity when starting at low temps. modern motorcycles require much shorter crank times, even at low temps. after several long hard cranks .. 29amp @14v was measured flowing into Shorai LFX36.

starting at 20f R80G/S could need multiple 30second+ cranks at 250amp+ draw.


_cy_ screwed with this post 05-30-2013 at 09:58 PM
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Old 05-31-2013, 01:54 PM   #339
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first- Joel, thanks for all this hardwork. it is appreciated.
2nd- I ended up balancing cost and quality, and decided that the Antigravity, at 3x the price, was not quite what I needed. I did some searching, and came up with this smoking hot deal on what seemed to be the #1 contender for an AGM batt..
http://www.tristatebattery.com/etx14...ery-p-975.html
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:11 PM   #340
RoundOz
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I am still making my way through this brilliant thread but it is slow going trying to absorb it all. Maybe someone can answer the following. ..not many replies on the thread I started...
Has anyone fitted a 16 cell antigrav in a 990...this is what Scott at AG is recommending to me but the dimensions don't seem to jibe with those of the oem batt...upright or laying down. Second...what are people finding as a normal voltage output for the 990 RR? High enough to top off the Lithiums?

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Old 08-29-2013, 08:46 PM   #341
_cy_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundOz View Post
I am still making my way through this brilliant thread but it is slow going trying to absorb it all. Maybe someone can answer the following. ..not many replies on the thread I started...
Has anyone fitted a 16 cell antigrav in a 990...this is what Scott at AG is recommending to me but the dimensions don't seem to jibe with those of the oem batt...upright or laying down. Second...what are people finding as a normal voltage output for the 990 RR? High enough to top off the Lithiums?

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Joel have not been around much lately .. he's probably been really busy running his dealership ... sooo I'll pitch in ...

ALL charging systems designed to support PB puts out 13.8v to 14.2v at mid rpm. which matches perfectly with LiFePO4's voltage range of 14.6v full charge down to 12.85v, about 15% charge remaining. BMW F8 is one of the few exceptions with voltage actually dropping to about 14v at high rpm. this is why a replacement R/R is recommended to increase voltage to normal profile.

LiFePO4 will operate between 13.3v to 12.85v which constitutes about 90% of available power. don't go below 12.85v to avoid shorting life. all LiFePO4 are constructed of 4 cells in series to produce correct voltage for a 12v system. each 4x 26650 series = 2.5AH (new series cells) ... so 16 cell = 10AH actual or a perfect size fit for KTM 990 original 11AH AGM.

just finished doing tech support for a 990Adv with electrical gremlins in Finland going RTW. most issues with correct LiFePO4 sizing for 990adv, which should be similar to 990RR are covered here http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=914232

Currently EarthX has the most advanced LiFePO4 battery out with internal BMS, overcharge and under discharge protection using MOSFETs rated at 600amps.

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Old 08-30-2013, 04:48 AM   #342
RoundOz
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Don't want to sound like a dick, but how does a 14.2 RR output ( maybe much less at idle, top off a 14.6 rated battery.

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Old 08-30-2013, 10:03 AM   #343
_cy_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundOz View Post
Don't want to sound like a dick, but how does a 14.2 RR output ( maybe much less at idle, top off a 14.6 rated battery.

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good question actually .. each LiFePO4 cell is fully charged at 3.65v x 4 = 14.6v .. resting voltage drops to about 14.25v for a LiFePO4 battery without internal BMS. with cell balancing voltage is shunted off until desired voltage is reached. resting voltage with internal BMS is about 13.85v.

voltage drops rapidly at first discharge to 13.3v range. then remainder of discharge cycle will be extremely flat. about 1/2v variation for 90% of usable amp hour.

13.3v to 12.85v (15%) is the normal range LiFePO4 lives in. Let's say LiFePO4 battery is charged at 14.2v ... no it will not charge up to 100% levels, but it will charge to about 95% or so. charge cycles just below full charge greatly increases number of charge/discharge cycles LiFePO4 batteries will deliver.

think water in a pipe ... voltage = pressure ... current = flow
at 14.2v it's not possible to overcharge a LiFePO4 battery. which is a good thing.
ALL charging systems designed to support PB will charge at 13.8v to 14.2v at mid rpm.

one common failure mode for permanent magnet charging systems is what happens when the rectifier/reg fails? output of 18v+ @ say 30amps could dumped into your battery .. killing battery in short order ... LiFePO4 battery getting slammed with say 39v for extended periods could end up in a fire.

this is where EarthX's latest development of using MOSFETs for overcharge and under discharge protection has a HUGE advantage! American engineering at it's finest. LiFePo4 cells used in motorcycle batteries may be mfg overseas... but the know how that started it all came from good ole USA. It's happened again ... quite an engineering feat by EarthX!


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Old 08-31-2013, 09:32 AM   #344
RoundOz
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So in a practical sense the 14.6 is a bit misleading...if you found your EarthX at 13.85after sitting for a day or two with no parasitic loss you could be happy that you have, effectively, a fully charged battery or should I say a battery that under the circumstances has all the power it will ever have for starting purposes? Further, if you found the voltage at this level on a super cold morning, would there be any benefit gained by plugging in a charger overnight or for an hour or two, to try to get the voltage higher? If no charge benefit, is it likely that plugging it in overnight will warm it much to be able to avoid the cold starting technique, which always seems to me wasteful of battery power and causing extra wear on starting components. If there is little charging current I would assume little heating also. My thoughts were to install a 120 v battery heating blanket as i have done for pb vehicle batts in Nebraska and Wyoming. Antigravity Scott told me this was a reasonable plan.

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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
good question actually .. each LiFePO4 cell is fully charged at 3.65v x 4 = 14.6v .. resting voltage drops to about 14.25v for a LiFePO4 battery without internal BMS. with cell balancing voltage is shunted off until desired voltage is reached. resting voltage with internal BMS is about 13.85v.

voltage drops rapidly at first discharge to 13.3v range. then remainder of discharge cycle will be extremely flat. about 1/2v variation for 90% of usable amp hour.

13.3v to 12.85v (15%) is the normal range LiFePO4 lives in. Let's say LiFePO4 battery is charged at 14.2v ... no it will not charge up to 100% levels, but it will charge to about 95% or so. charge cycles just below full charge greatly increases number of charge/discharge cycles LiFePO4 batteries will deliver.

think water in a pipe ... voltage = pressure ... current = flow
at 14.2v it's not possible to overcharge a LiFePO4 battery. which is a good thing.
ALL charging systems designed to support PB will charge at 13.8v to 14.2v at mid rpm.

one common failure mode for permanent magnet charging systems is what happens when the rectifier/reg fails? output of 18v+ @ say 30amps could dumped into your battery .. killing battery in short order ... LiFePO4 battery getting slammed with say 39v for extended periods could end up in a fire.

this is where EarthX's latest development of using MOSFETs for overcharge and under discharge protection has a HUGE advantage! American engineering at it's finest. LiFePo4 cells used in motorcycle batteries may be mfg overseas... but the know how that started it all came from good ole USA. It's happened again ... quite an engineering feat by EarthX!

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Old 08-31-2013, 10:06 AM   #345
_cy_
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Originally Posted by RoundOz View Post
So in a practical sense the 14.6 is a bit misleading...if you found your EarthX at 13.85after sitting for a day or two with no parasitic loss you could be happy that you have, effectively, a fully charged battery or should I say a battery that under the circumstances has all the power it will ever have for starting purposes? Further, if you found the voltage at this level on a super cold morning, would there be any benefit gained by plugging in a charger overnight or for an hour or two, to try to get the voltage higher? If no charge benefit, is it likely that plugging it in overnight will warm it much to be able to avoid the cold starting technique, which always seems to me wasteful of battery power and causing extra wear on starting components. If there is little charging current I would assume little heating also. My thoughts were to install a 120 v battery heating blanket as i have done for pb vehicle batts in Nebraska and Wyoming. Antigravity Scott told me this was a reasonable plan.
not miss leading at all .. that's just how LiFePO4 works.
if a 12v LiFePO4 battery is charged full to 14.6v, then allowed to rest overnight.

if LiFePO4 battery has no internal BMS to balance cells. resting voltage will drop to about 14.25v ... if LiFePO4 has an internal BMS resting voltage will drop to about 13.85v. how cell balancing works is after each cell reaches 3.65v, current is shunted until voltage reaches about 3.46v. weaker cell(s) has a way reach same state of charge as stronger cells.

during assembly process mfg carefully matches cells. but it's very difficult, some say impossible to perfectly match all cells. in larger AH LiFePO4 as number of cells increase, it becomes even more difficult to achieve a perfect match.

then when cells age they never deteriorate at same rate. so it's inevitable that cells will eventually become unbalanced. As LiFePO4 batteries age, it's important for batteries with no internal BMS to manually balance cells with an external charger.

Shorai has external balance ports that can be hooked up to any hobby charger to bring all cells to same state of charge. Antigravity should be balanced charged with Optimate Lithium LiFePO4 charger that also will bring all cells to same state of charge.

EarthX has always had internal cell balancing and has just added overcharge and under discharge protections with MOSFETs. So most any PB battery charger can be used.



Shorai after reaching 100% charge with Cel Pro Powerlab 8, one of the world's most advanced chargers. Fluke 87V reads 14.56v or fully charged with a new battery. As cells age max achieved full charge voltage will drop.



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