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Old 02-07-2014, 02:20 PM   #436
_cy_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianstanfill View Post
This is the first I'm reading about weight being used to accurately measure Lithium power capacity. This can't be any less speculative than PBEQ. Given the overall lightness (mere pounds) of the cells, case materials and added components (like steel plate lol) would skew the numbers significantly.
totally not true ... ALL actual LiFePO4 cell materials weights about the same. there are minor differences in weight between metal clad cylindrical LiFePO4 vs flat prismatic LiFePO4 cells. but actual LiFePO4 internal materials that it takes to make up a cell are about the same.

there are differences in weight, internally for BMS, connection buss, terminals, etc and external packaging. but no LiFePO4 mfg will intentionally add weight to battery as light weight savings is a major selling point.

another metric that can be counted is valid for LiFePO4 batteries that use only 26650 cylindrical cells only. ALL LiFePO4 uses four cells in series. early 26650 cells have about 2.3AH actual .. later improved 26650 cells has 2.5AH actual ... there's a few LiFePO4 cells floating around that claims slightly higher AH. each 4x 26650 in series = 2.5AH .. 8 cell = 5AH .. 16 cell = 10AH and so forth. but battery case size starts coming into play on higher number cylindrical cell batteries on bikes like KTM 990's tiny battery tray.

improvement for li-ion cells improve most for highest production models. for instance 18650 LiCo cells are the most common of all li-ion cells due to extensive use in laptops. AH capacity for 18650 LiCo are highest of any li-ion cells purely due to R&D $$ spent on most popular cell. 18650 cells have been over 2.5AH for 8+ years. Testla uses thousands of 18650 LiCo cells in Model S. but temps are water cooled with exotic battery management systems.

as cell size goes up .. LiCo energy density advantage goes away vs larger LiFePO4 cells.

from what I can tell .. Shorai was the first to use pb/eq .. so other LiFePO4 mfg was forced to use same labeling or risk not being competitive. when it comes to Li-ion technologies .. things can get very complex in the hurry. now Shorai are making it yet more difficult to tell what one is buying. for instance Shorai LFX14 makes several different models that all uses LFX14 label ... weight veri from 1.4lb to 2.3lb .. which translates into about 3AH to 5AH actual ..

so marketing had to make a choice to make things easy as possible to understand. Joel W and I have been basically saying the same things for quite sometime now.

sure wish Joel would pop up again ... He's been really busy running a motorcycle dealership.

this pic shows differences in size between 4x 26650 LiFePO4 cells vs 4x 18650 LiCo cells .. both have about same AH capacity .. energy density is higher for smaller 18650 LiCo cells

_cy_ screwed with this post 02-07-2014 at 04:37 PM
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Old 02-07-2014, 05:45 PM   #437
WayneC1
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It is time to move away from AH as a rating, Specific Power and Specific Energy storage will be the ratings moving onto the future
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Old 02-07-2014, 06:37 PM   #438
_cy_
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Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
It is time to move away from AH as a rating, Specific Power and Specific Energy storage will be the ratings moving onto the future
sorry but totally disagree ... amp hour capacity is a basic measurement that will never go away. if more LiFePO4 mfg would use actual AH ratings .. there would be substantially less failures from installing too small LiFePO4 batteries.

if factory OEM engineers thought 12 amp hour was the correct size for your motorcycle. when you put a 5AH in it's place .. don't be surprised if it fails early ...

but sadly that's not the case .. LiFePO4 mfg typically will represent that 5AH as an 18AH battery with pb/eq nearby. result is folks understandably think they just replaced their 12AH AGM with a super light 18AH LiFePO4 and increased AH capacity to boot.

when in fact they just replaced their 12AH AGM with a 5AH actual LiFePO4. then all goes well when bike is ridden in warm conditions .. for that tiny 5AH delivers huge starting amps. but then owner parks his bike for a few months only to find his bike with a dead new LiFePO4 battery.

surprise .. parasitic drain uses real amps .. your bike can only sit less than 1/2 as long without going dead.

_cy_ screwed with this post 02-07-2014 at 06:46 PM
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Old 02-07-2014, 07:15 PM   #439
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The AH rating was a rating developed specifically for lead acid batteries and conveys the capacity of the battery to deliver energy to low current loads and also the correct charging rate for the battery ie 1/10 of the AH

With lead acid we then need to use the CCA rating to measure the starting capability of the batteries

The rating systems for automotive Lithium batteries are not yet developed and you can see from the pages of discussion and variations in the way manufacturers present their batteries that a standardized way of presenting capacity, both high and low current capability will come at some point

The lithium cell researchers use Specific Power and Specific Energy storage to measure performance of the cells as it is the real capability of the cells which deliver close to 100% of the stored capacity in a short time unlike lead acid which can only deliver 1/3rd of stored capacity in a short time due to the chemistry

It is a changing world and the rating systems will change to address the different product types and capabilities
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Old 02-07-2014, 10:02 PM   #440
_cy_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
The AH rating was a rating developed specifically for lead acid batteries and conveys the capacity of the battery to deliver energy to low current loads and also the correct charging rate for the battery ie 1/10 of the AH

With lead acid we then need to use the CCA rating to measure the starting capability of the batteries

The rating systems for automotive Lithium batteries are not yet developed and you can see from the pages of discussion and variations in the way manufacturers present their batteries that a standardized way of presenting capacity, both high and low current capability will come at some point

The lithium cell researchers use Specific Power and Specific Energy storage to measure performance of the cells as it is the real capability of the cells which deliver close to 100% of the stored capacity in a short time unlike lead acid which can only deliver 1/3rd of stored capacity in a short time due to the chemistry

It is a changing world and the rating systems will change to address the different product types and capabilities
sorry but that's not true either .. amp hour is a basic measurement used on batteries of ALL chemistries.

CCA is a specific measurement used for PB that may or may not apply to LiFePO4. ALL li-ion batteries including LiFePO4 and LiCo have very low internal resistance. this means all li-ion batteries are capable of discharging a very high rates. this is part of the reason why CCA numbers are next to meaningless for li-ion.

LiFePO4 operates at different voltages from PB so voltage drop numbers for CCA numbers are not valid for LiFePO4 .. the list goes on but I'm getting tired of typing..

don't believe the BS that AH is no longer necessary. sorry it's a fundamental measurement for reserve capacity that's not changing anytime soon.
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:38 AM   #441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
could be a good battery or give dismal performance. time will tell........ anyone can start a LiFePO4 battery mfg business in their garage
http://www.go-aliant.com/web/index.php/news.html

May be they produce in their garage, but is equipment for Aprilia in WCSuperBike..... AH is very important for finish the race (beyond the weight, obviously).

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Old 02-08-2014, 03:42 AM   #442
_cy_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gianni1951 View Post
http://www.go-aliant.com/web/index.php/news.html

May be they produce in their garage, but is equipment for Aprilia in WCSuperBike..... AH is very important for finish the race (beyond the weight, obviously).
producing in a garage is not an insult .. simply an expression. Apple computers was first produced in Steve Jobs parent's garage.

who cares a LiFePO4 battery was used in a superbike race? what exactly does that prove? someone has marketing $$$ to spend?

what counts is that LiFePO4 battery's performance in all types of weather conditions and how it holds up. there's going to be lots more new 12v LiFePO4 mfg yet to come. sorry new products are suspect until proven.

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Old 02-15-2014, 12:25 AM   #443
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Europe dealer

My 08 F800GS battery become tricky last autumn, so i think i need a new battery. After reading this topic, i am decided for Antigravity [thanks Joel], but i was unable to find an European dealer, cause i'm living on the [wrong] other side of the pond.
So if anyone know one please let me know.
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Old 03-10-2014, 04:54 AM   #444
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Holy smokes, an entire thread devoted to an intelligent discussion on batteries!

Seriously, I enjoy letting my inner geek out, and have been conducting similar testing on batteries. I've got a Deltran (Battery Tender) 300 en route for my Ural. It will undergo a whole lot of testing before install. I'm excited to see another reputable manufacturer enter the business, and the quad-terminal setup is very appealing to me. I've not devoted any of my bikes to LiFePo4 batteries yet, primarily because of cold weather issues. I've tested and run countless LiFePo4 batteries in Afghanistan, and have had seriously mixed results in the cold. I'm not talking drastic cold either. I've seen a world of issues at 15 Farenheit, many beyond just "warming" the battery with some current. However, with a new baby in the picture, MrsDonkeys and I are riding less frequently, and for shorter durations. So the bikes are sitting longer between starts, and the nasty Winter has taken its toll. The Ural battery was the first to bite the dust, so it becomes the test bed. I'm not a fan of having Tender wires all over my garage, so a Lithium seems like the answer.

More to follow when it comes in.
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Old 03-10-2014, 05:23 AM   #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
CCA is a specific measurement used for PB that may or may not apply to LiFePO4. don't believe the BS that AH is no longer necessary.
Well the bottom line is, 99.99% of the time, the ability to start an engine far outweighs the ability to play the radio for 48 hours.

The only time AH was important to me is when the alternator belt went and I had a 110 mile drive home. I had 120 minutes of RC.
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Old 03-12-2014, 01:05 PM   #446
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Seems the A123 26650 cells are 12 usd each on ebay.

What is so different with the shrinkwrapped batteries? Not good protection of the cells?
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Old 03-12-2014, 01:50 PM   #447
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Are you asking what makes A123 cells so much better to be desirable and charge the price?

primarily this:
  • Standard Charging: 2.5A, 1.0C rate
  • Maximum Charging: 10.0A, 4.0C rate
  • 70A continuous discharge, 28C rate
  • 120A, 10 sec pulse discharge, 48C rate

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Old 03-12-2014, 04:47 PM   #448
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So after 2 years and 447 post have we come to a conclusion to which would be the best in Lithium batteries?

Yet again I have a dead sealed acid battery and am getting tired of dropping $100+ every season.

This time I really want to get a Li-Ion battery for my '00 Drz400S. Any recommendations?

Thanks a bunch,
Greebe

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Old 03-13-2014, 12:49 AM   #449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greebe View Post
So after 2 years and 447 post have we come to a conclusion to which would be the best in Lithium batteries?

Yet again I have a dead sealed acid battery and am getting tired of dropping $100+ every season.

This time I really want to get a Li-Ion battery for my '00 Drz400S. Any recommendations?

Thanks a bunch,
Greebe

1st check your motorcycle's charging system voltage. It must be between 14.4 & 14.6V
2nd choose a LFP battery with the same or more Ah as the OEM (Not PbEq!)
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Old 03-13-2014, 02:46 PM   #450
Hamish71
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Wicked

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greebe View Post
So after 2 years and 447 post have we come to a conclusion to which would be the best in Lithium batteries?

Yet again I have a dead sealed acid battery and am getting tired of dropping $100+ every season.

This time I really want to get a Li-Ion battery for my '00 Drz400S. Any recommendations?

Thanks a bunch,
Greebe

Hear hear.....

I have read this thread front to back a few times....staying away for a few months. Whilst the technical discussion is interesting once, after that it becomes a chore searching for "the answer". Any chance of an Exec Summary at the beginning of the thread? We are in the "parallel universe" thread, so maybe a list like this:

Bike type; recommended normal duty spec; recommended battery mfg and part no; recommended heavy duty spec; recommended battery mfg and part no

eg.

F800GS, 100AH, Buds Batteries A1-2, 110AH, Chucks Charger ZZ2-345


Not saying there arent a few of you aren't enjoying the conversation :) but a recommendation would be nice.
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