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Old 03-24-2012, 06:35 PM   #61
ebrabaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
Outstanding



ebrabaek, I still want to see what you measure, partially for another data point, but more because I am curious what kind of meter you use :)

.
Ohhh dear..... I'm fraid I'l make you laugh...... I use a 22 year old Shack multimeter...before there were China.....from a WTO point..... But it is very accurate.....and I have not seen a need to replace it, until it dies..... I am on the springboard for this little piece though.......


Perhaps foe the BD.......
I'l measure up monday in the am....as I will be floating around tomorrow until late PM.......

Erling
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:40 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
1) would have expected the highest temperature from the pole pieces closest to the header if it was a major influence, but it certainly can't hurt, the stator at least. Time will tell what the header and CAT think of it.

2) Unknown. It will reduce the heck out of stator temp anytime your battery and equipment are not pulling full load. Will it cause electrical interference with other items? Resonate or over voltage the stator insulation? Probably not, but I don't know for certain.

3) Yes! It's impossible for me to calculate. I lack the mathematics and even with them, things of this complexity require full scale testing to quantify. You have inductive reactance, capacitive reactance, eddy currents, magnetic saturation, and resistance, thermal conduction, convection, and radiation just to name the major players. My slightly educated guess is it might drop the stator temp 3c. That is something because the effect temperature has on magnet wire insulation is anything but linear.

What I really suspect is that a little resistance is going to have to be added to each of the 3 wires between the stator and voltage regulator. Once again complex, but a better educated guess is about 0.2 ohms, which should derate the stator output to around 370 watts by my calculations and assumptions.
Thanks Joel!

I've been out riding for the last few days on the coast ... no e-mail

The 0.2 ohm series resistors would be an "easy" fix maybe ...
I started thinking about wattage .... To produce 400W each stator leg needs to be putting out about ~9.5A

9.5A^2 * 0.2 ohms = 18W or 54W total ...

That's a high-side and simplistic estimate done by by a guy with very rusty EE skills.

It got me thinking that the size of the heat sink on the stock R/R does not seem any too "generous" in size given that it needs to be able to disappate something like ~250W of surplus output from the stator when nothing was drawing power on the bike other than basic requirements & low beam headlight.

I hope one of your R/R mfg. buddies comes up with something nice - thanks for asking them!

As another data point, my F650GS which is now 3.5yrs old and has a new Deka battery installed reads as follows
(using my venerable Fluke 77 meter):

12.90 - resting overnight voltage
13.91 - stable idle
13.65 - 3K RPM

THANKS!
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:26 AM   #63
ebrabaek
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Got home late last night..... and today is the day to show off my high tech meter..........

Key off battery rest from overnight....


Key on...engine off......


Idle.....


3000 rpm.....


30 seconds after key off.....




Erling
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:37 PM   #64
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very interesting video of Lithium batteries and the cold problem.

http://ballisticparts.com/downloads/video/video2.php

they show a HD that is in stone cold (upper 20'sF) with a lithium battery.

what they are showing here is during the crank stage the battery will produce internal heat. They will do a short crank, let it sit for a couple seconds, do another short crank, let it set and each time you see how the battery works better as it heats up with internal heat. Long story short, after battery warms up from it's own internal heat, bike cranks fine.
PS: Watch the volt meter when he hits the starter button.
Remember as the voltage goes down, the required amperage goes up. I bet that voltage drop could weld the starter relay in the start position (Which does happen to older K100's with low batteries).
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Old 03-26-2012, 03:30 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
Got home late last night..... and today is the day to show off my high tech meter..........


Idle.....






Erling
It appears you have a magic alternator or a miscalibrated VOM ....
Could we trouble you to unscrew your R/R and post the markings on the back?

Mine (lower voltage output) has the corporate logo for shindengen on the back, along with:
SH541G-12 (Part number I think...)
8.4022 (mfg lot/date code?)

Schematic might be on this page: http://www.shindengen.co.jp/product_...o/catalog.html
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Old 03-26-2012, 04:14 PM   #66
ebrabaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
It appears you have a magic alternator or a miscalibrated VOM ....
Could we trouble you to unscrew your R/R and post the markings on the back?

Mine (lower voltage output) has the corporate logo for shindengen on the back, along with:
SH541G-12 (Part number I think...)
8.4022 (mfg lot/date code?)

Schematic might be on this page: http://www.shindengen.co.jp/product_...o/catalog.html
Yessir.... I'l be right back.....

Erling
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Old 03-26-2012, 04:26 PM   #67
ebrabaek
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Hereyago....2009...




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Old 03-26-2012, 05:26 PM   #68
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So, let's start looking on the back of RRs....I posted earlier that mine says SH541SC 0.0061 - and it has a small white paint dot inside the 'legs' of that molded-in capital A in the corner.

Does SC stand for Super Concoction? Special Calibration? Silly Caucasian? Super Computer?

Why does my bike charge different?

(I just remembered that my GS911 reads voltage. Think that is worth looking at as a triple check?)
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:51 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
It appears you have a magic alternator or a miscalibrated VOM ....
Could we trouble you to unscrew your R/R and post the markings on the back?
]
Thats all normal, it's just variance between meters. Notice resting voltage is 13.1. Lead acid does not rest that high once the surface charge is gone, it rests at 12.84 at the absolute most.

All the meters on this thread are varying, mostly up which is the way they usually drift.

All readings have shown the voltage higher at idle and lower at RPM except for NCD's which is the only one that is also a charging at a higher voltage that seems real.

I'm completely satisfied. The F800 idles at around 14.1 volts and at rpm is around 13.85, from first year through the one I checked this afternoon which was another 2012, with at least one exception but i'm going to say that is super rare.


ebrabaek, thanks, I did indeed laugh when I saw that meter, partially because I used to have one just like it, about 20 years ago :) The old Micronta meters were actually very good. I might still have mine but it exploded when I tried to measure voltage on a 2000 amp 480 buss with the leads in the wrong jacks.

If you get it, the BK 5491B is an awesome meter! Takes forever to turn on, but so does my fancy fluke. Once it boots up, the 5491B is fast, accurate, and just laid out very user friendly. I don't own one, but used it at a friends lab.

For the mere mortals on this thread..... HERE is a 1 hour review of 5 cheap multimeters.

THIS is the cheapest meter I own and would feel fine about taking with me on a cross continent ride.

Money no object? THIS is the multimeter I wish I owned for everyday shop work and rides to the four corners. Will double as offensive weapon.


Towpro, You hit the nail on the head. LiFePo4 needs to internally heat to provide full cranking amps, and not just when cold. Even warm LiFePo4, batteries that will start your bike fine have a large voltage drop for the first few seconds. Enough so, that even on a warm day, the the battery recommended for some bikes by some manufactures will be damaging bikes starting systems over time IMO.

The K100 isn't the only bike who's starter relay can weld together or just burn up, I have seen this happen on two F8's as well, though both with crappy oe batteries.

Further, though its not an issue with the F8 since its starter uses a sprag clutch to transmit starter power to the crank, some bikes including the BMW boxer bikes use a bendix or solenoid to force the starter pinion onto the flywheel ring gear.

On these bikes, under voltage during cranking will over time destroy both the starter and ring gear, necessitating removal of the transmission to repair on the BMW boxers.

I'm going to get into cold weather tests and all of the above, but first I have to find a LifePo4 battery that passes my tests when warm, which the LFX18 from Shorai does not.

Stay tuned :)
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:58 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCD View Post
So, let's start looking on the back of RRs....I posted earlier that mine says SH541SC 0.0061 - and it has a small white paint dot inside the 'legs' of that molded-in capital A in the corner.

Does SC stand for Super Concoction? Special Calibration? Silly Caucasian? Super Computer?

Why does my bike charge different?

(I just remembered that my GS911 reads voltage. Think that is worth looking at as a triple check?)
I'm satisfied that your bike IS charging different as the readings are consistent and the drop in voltage at RPM that even the worst multimeter would pick up isn't there.

As to why? Your regulator is either defective in a pleasing way, or BMW is fielding some test units.

All manufactures secretly do this and none will ever admit it or do anything about it when caught.

Either way, I wouldn't worry about it, because what your regulator is doing is what others should be wishing theirs did :)
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:38 PM   #71
ebrabaek
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I had a feeling you would at the very least giggle Joel....



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Old 03-27-2012, 05:42 PM   #72
JoelWisman OP
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CCA and other current delivery ratings

Highly delayed, but ground work for posting video and text results for fixed, variable, and in motorcycle current delivery tests of batteries.


Current delivery ratings are ways to quantify how much juice a battery can deliver in a short period of time.

Amp hour ratings of batteries can be compared to fuel tank size. A larger gas tank will allow you to ride further, but it has little affect on how fast your bike will go.

CCA and other current delivery ratings of your battery are analogous to how many horse power your engine puts out at full throttle.

All batteries have internal resistance as well as other variables that affect high rate current delivery. As current demanded from a battery gets high, the battery voltage lowers temporarily due to the above.

How much the voltage lowers depends on how much current is demanded and the batteries ability to deliver which is quantified by battery current delivery ratings.


Lets say battery (A) has an honest 200 CCA rating. Battery (B) has an honest 300 CCA rating.

Now lets say the bike we are starting is a Moto Guzzi Stelvio 1200 NXT and it’s 70F out. Under these conditions the Stelvio will draw around 180 amps while the motor is being cranked over.

With battery (A) installed in the Stelvio, the battery terminal voltage will drop to perhaps 10.8 volts in the 5 seconds the engine had to crank before starting.

Since battery (A) has a 200 CCA rating that the Stelvio starter did not exceed, is there any difference when using a higher CCA battery?

You bet! With battery (B) installed, the terminal voltage would only fall to, say, 11.3 volts.


So why all the fuss about voltage? Voltage multiplied by current equals POWER, and power is good :)

First is the effect on the starter. We have probably all experienced a bike cranking slowly or maybe not at all due to a low or worn out battery. This happens because such batteries can’t keep the voltage up. Likewise, battery (B) keeps the voltage higher then battery (A) and will crank the engine over that much faster.

Faster is better because it is more likely to start your bike. Either of these batteries will start a well maintained Stelvio on a warm day, but what if the Stelvio is not happy? Lets say the fuel injectors are a little plugged, spark plugs are a little wet or fouled, you filled up with old or shitty gas..... I could go on and on, but suffice it to say, for whatever reason the bike is harder to start then usual. In this case a higher CCA battery will turn the engine over faster which lowers compression loss, reduces the time fuel has to condense when cold, and turbulates and mixes the charge in the combustion chamber more. The above will make the engine more likely to start.

Cranking terminal voltage also has an effect on other things. Fuel injectors can stick from time to time due to internal corrosion or fuel varnish that acts like glue. Fuel injectors are opened by an electric solenoid. A fuel injector that sticks closed with the stock battery will often open and work free if higher cranking voltage is maintained because the voltage the fuel injector solenoid sees is directly proportional to how hard the solenoid pulls. More power is better!

The same is true of the ignition system. When the cranking voltage is higher, the coil(s) produce a stronger spark that is more likely to ignite sub optimal fuel mixtures.

The list goes on, but take it from me, CCA matters and MORE power is BETTER.

During my 20+ years in the service industry, I could not even begin to count the number of vehicles towed in that I started simply by attaching a boost charger or large jump battery. In most of these vehicles something was wrong that had nothing to do with the battery, but more power allowed me to start these vehicles and drive them into my stall, and nowhere was this truer then my time in a BMW motorcycle service department but i’m sure this holds true for other brands as well.

Further, more battery power is better for the bike starting system in several ways. Bikes using a sprag clutch to transmit power from the starter are not damaged by low voltage (though under low voltage they certainly won’t start the bike) but some bikes use starters that must shove a pinion into the flywheel to transmit starter power to the engine. Whether done by bendix or electromagnet, these starting systems can destroy themselves and the flywheel ring gear when repeatedly operated with low voltage because the power applied to the starter can be to low to fully engage the pinion.

Next up, the starter relay contacts are themselves propelled together by an electro magnet. Too low of voltage and these contacts will chatter, arc, weld together or melt down.

Enough power is ok. Too little power is bad. MORE power is better :)

On an adventure bike that just might be 500 miles from a dealership when something goes wrong, more battery power can make the difference between joy and misery.


The terminology.....

CCA (Cold cranking amperes) was coined and defined by the Battery Council International and is defined as follows:
“The number of amps a battery can deliver for 30 seconds, without falling below a terminal voltage of 7.2 volts (12 volt battery) when the battery is 0 degrees fahrenheit (-17.7C)”.

Later this definition was standardized and adopted by S.A.E. and precise test methods are contained in SAE J537


CA also called MARINE CRANKING AMPS is the same as above but at a temperature of 32 degrees fahrenheit (0C).


HCA is “hot cranking amps” and is the same values as above but at 80 degrees fahrenheit (26.7C)


PHCA was coined by Odyssey. It seems to be the number of amps that can be supported for 5 seconds which is reasonable as one rarely holds down the start button for 30 consecutive seconds and still has a starter motor that is not on fire, but since Odyssey did not go on to define “down to what voltage” the term is not yet useful.


CCA PBEQ (PB= lead, EQ= equivalent) This term as used by Shorai is meaningless. The reason I call this term meaningless is that it implies that one can use this number and get comparable performance from a Shorai battery to a lead/acid battery with the same CCA rating when You can not.

LiFePo4 power sports battery manufactures certainly can’t use SAE J537 to rate the CCA of their batteries because the test methods do not account for LeFePo4 batteries needing a period of current flow and then rest before full CCA can be realized.

They could however write CCA*1

“*1 CCA achieved after cranking for 5 seconds then resting for 1 minute to internally self heat lithium cells”

unfortunately since battery sales have always been driven by ratings, once Shorai (I believe they were the first) made up this BS term, other manufactures had to follow suit or die.


How to test the for the actual CCA of a battery:

Simple. Take a battery that has been cold soaked at 0F, apply X number of amps continuously for 30 seconds. Record the minimum terminal voltage throughout this test. If the reading remains above 7.2 volts, recharge the battery and apply higher amps until you find that magical number or at least the number you wish to advertise on the battery.


Some time ago, manufactures of cheap batteries successfully petitioned BCI to come up with a gentler field test for battery CCA. I don’t remember all of the posited reasons, but the real reason IMO is that especially as it ages, a cheap battery will have too thin of a buss to sustain a full rated CCA load without the buss burning through or cracking.

There are other reasons, technicians didn’t like wheeling around a carbon load tester and preferred a cute low power hand held, and also if the buss does burn in half during the full scale test, the battery occasionally explodes.


I am a stickler for tradition when tradition works :)

On quality batteries, CCA means this battery really WILL put out this much current when fully charged

Up next, actual CCA tests
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:27 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScienceOfDirt View Post
Bike running. See picture for RPM, temp, and voltage reading. This was after a short ride home for lunch. Bike is a 2010 vintage. Let me know if I can get anything else.

From Forum

Off topic but EWWWWWWWWWWWW, you gots that famed Rally Moto steering damper I have on my 1200 GSadv...loverly bit of kit...
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:25 PM   #74
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Batteries Plus

First a thanks to all who contributed on this thread...fantastic bit of engineering information provided, and sure makes the decision tree a might bit easier for now...

In kind, about four weeks ago when I had interest in buying a couple of Shorai batteries for my KTM 690R and the BMW 1200GSadv, I went down to my local Savannah Batteries Plus franchise and inquired within...what I got both from a sales person and the manager was the following reasons why they do not and will not stock the Shorai or other Lithium Ion batteries:

1.) To start with, Federal laws (and some state laws) require large scale resellers of the the Lithium based batteries to set up a special process for
(a) storing old batteries
(b) transporting old batteries
NOTE: neither could tell me what defines a large scale reseller nor the exact statute of law governing disposing of used batteries.

2.) Because of the heat involved on differing Lithium Ion batteries in differing bikes, they won't take the liability of the battery bursting into flames...I was initially confused by this, but the manager knew about the Tesla Coupe and the fire damage as well as the overheating problem (the Coupe is now water cooled batteries I believe)...

3.) Most OEM car or motorcycle battery holders are too big for the Lithium Ion battery holders.

4.) And, lithium Ion batteries are typically a factor of 1.5x or greater in price compared to the standard battery as of right now...though business has been a bit off over the last 3 years, they have sold more of an inexpensive line of batteries and thus for the foreseeable future, they don't see how they would be able to sell higher quantities of a more expensive battery...
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Old 03-28-2012, 01:03 AM   #75
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great thread Joel...love your work

anyway... i figured i'd have a bit of a poke around with a multimeter and see what i had....

you ready ?

ok... i rode 400km so the bike was hot... ambient temp 28.5 according to BMW...

i got home, stopped bike went and got my meter (cheaper 'dick smith electronics' (think radio shack i suppose) that ive had for a few year...measures just about everything.. started the bike and stuck it in the accessory port next to the ignition...

idle (approx 1100-1200rpm) : 14.27v
started to rev up to 3k rpm, fan kicked in, so with fan running at 3000 rpm : 14.12v
dropped back to idle with fan still running : 13.5v

let her idle for a min or so and fan shut off...reved back to 3000rpm without fan : 14.31v

dropped here back to idle and something weird happened... all i could get was 9.8v (reving or idle... )

switched here of, waited a minute, started... still could only get 9.8v

left her 5 mins, started, no fan connected meter and immediate reading was 13.8v, but this kept climbing over about 15 seconds of just iddling to 14.25v
reved to 3k, still no fan, 14.25v

so i figured i should go direct to the battery

went and fueled up so my fuel light wasnt on..

ripped the panel off, cleared away the dead bugs and fired her up again

28.0 degrees,

meter started at 13.1, but climbed constantly over about 20 seconds and stabilised at 14.31v
reved up to 3000 rpm : 14.33v
drop back to idle 14.33v (no change )

then just to prove the meter would display a different number
heated grips on : 14.26v
plus high beam 13.24v
plus fan kicked in 12.64v
high beam and heated grips off, fan still on : 13.55v
fan cut out : 14.33v

so......

there you go..
she's a 2012 (about 4 months old..

i haven't gone looking for purple dots yet

cheers!.

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