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Old 03-14-2015, 07:24 PM   #1
itsnumber42 OP
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Question tryin to build interest in a MCCT

Hello everyone,
I am new to this forum, been reading it for quite some time though...

What I am trying to do is find out how much interest is out there for a MCCT (manual cam chain tensioner) specifically made for the 650/700/800...

I know a company, TOC Manufacturing, and they would be willing to start production if there is enough (verified) interest in making them...

you can google for their website and see that is one item they specialize in making and selling...I personally have purchased MCCT's from them before for bikes I owned in the past...

anyway, if I can gather up enough interest, get a "start-up" going they will begin building them, they have reviewed videos and pictures that I have supplied and they believe it can be done...

so what do you think?
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Old 03-14-2015, 08:42 PM   #2
Hucker
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I'd be interested.
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Old 03-14-2015, 10:45 PM   #3
Indy Unlimited
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Me too.
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Old 03-15-2015, 01:13 PM   #4
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why?

Why would you want one?
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Old 03-15-2015, 03:35 PM   #5
itsnumber42 OP
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as far as why:
first, if your automatic tensioner fails and you either don't notice or can't deal with it soon enough, you can damage/destroy your chain guides and put hard plastic all over the inside of your engine...

second, if you are running at speed when this happens, the chain "whip" can severely damage the teeth on the crank and/or the cams...worst case would be that there is a possibility that the chain could jump a tooth and set your timing way out and there goes your engine...

third, as your chain slowly stretches out, your auto tensioner picks up the slack, but when it reaches the end of its travel, the noise can get bad, and you are back to number one...

the manuals are easy to set up and maintain, have a 0% failure rate compared to the automatic, and give (IMHO) a piece of mind...

they make them for the BMW 1000 race bike, as well as almost all other race bikes, that must say something...
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Old 03-15-2015, 05:48 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsnumber42 View Post
as far as why:
first, if your automatic tensioner fails and you either don't notice or can't deal with it soon enough, you can damage/destroy your chain guides and put hard plastic all over the inside of your engine...

second, if you are running at speed when this happens, the chain "whip" can severely damage the teeth on the crank and/or the cams...worst case would be that there is a possibility that the chain could jump a tooth and set your timing way out and there goes your engine...

third, as your chain slowly stretches out, your auto tensioner picks up the slack, but when it reaches the end of its travel, the noise can get bad, and you are back to number one...

the manuals are easy to set up and maintain, have a 0% failure rate compared to the automatic, and give (IMHO) a piece of mind...

they make them for the BMW 1000 race bike, as well as almost all other race bikes, that must say something...
Failure due to ACCT sounds far-fetched to me. Where is the evidence that automatic chain tensioner failure rate is greater than zero on these engines? The only cam chain I ever had fail, 40+ years of riding 4-stroke dirt bikes, was on a 1984 Husqvarna 510TE, which came stock with a MCCT. Cause was due to noob owner not properly converting the shop manual specification of 'newtons' of force to be applied during adjustment to 'lbs force', or more appropriately, ounces of force.

Happy ending - only one side of the chain broke - the engine was still operable when I popped it open to check some fragments on the oil drain plug magnet.
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Old 03-15-2015, 07:41 PM   #7
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my experience with ACCT's and MCCT's is that after my vulcan ACCT failed at about 5000 rpm and the guides got torn up, ended up in my clutch plates and ripped them up, as well as had bits of crap everywhere...it also snapped off two teeth on my crank shaft as well...after that I have put MCCT's on all of my bikes...
I figured out that something failed when the "whip" motion of the chain (realize that both front and back guides were damaged) caused banging on the inside of the engine loud enough that it over powered the wind, exhaust and tire sound...

and like I said, if ACCT's are so great, why would all (or most) racers run with MCCT's...
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Old 03-15-2015, 07:45 PM   #8
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also, if you do a search on yahoo or google for camshaft tensioner failure, you will have 2-3 hours of reading of people that are having problems or are scared that it could be a problem, this is from ADVrider, F800riders.org, f650.com and there may be more...them are just the ones I read...
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Old 03-15-2015, 08:14 PM   #9
JRWooden
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Joel is no longer very active on the forum having left BMW, but he's one hell of a smart guy ...

Here are some of his thoughts:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...&postcount=161
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Old 03-15-2015, 09:32 PM   #10
itsnumber42 OP
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I have read the entire thread that was in...
my only thought is that BMW can't be sooo special that almost every other bike, including the BMW 1000 rr has MCCT's made for them as an option, and yet, with this BMW (650/700/800) it wouldn't work. If that is the case though, I will stand corrected in an instant, I just find it hard to believe.

as stated in an earlier entry, I have first hand knowledge of what happens when a ACCT fails, and if the chain on this twin "oscillates" that bad, and oscillation is caused by lack of tension, would not constant force on the guide fix all of that?
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Old 03-16-2015, 07:47 AM   #11
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Manual timing chain adjusters are best left to racers. Whenever a bike
comes in here with one, it's a red flag. They must be regularly/frequently
checked and carefully adjusted or major failure is just around
the corner. They are not "install and forget." If they were, automatic
adjusters would not be needed. Very few owners have the knowledge or
capability to care for a manual chain tensioner.

It's rare indeed for auto tensioners to fail without warning. Noise, high
miles, hard high rpm riding habits are signals. Plus, chain and tensioner condition
should be considered at regular valve checks....
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Old 03-16-2015, 08:21 AM   #12
itsnumber42 OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CycleDoc59 View Post
Manual timing chain adjusters are best left to racers. Whenever a bike
comes in here with one, it's a red flag. They must be regularly/frequently
checked and carefully adjusted or major failure is just around
the corner. They are not "install and forget." If they were, automatic
adjusters would not be needed. Very few owners have the knowledge or
capability to care for a manual chain tensioner.

It's rare indeed for auto tensioners to fail without warning. Noise, high
miles, hard high rpm riding habits are signals. Plus, chain and tensioner condition
should be considered at regular valve checks....
I respectfully disagree with the racer only comment, there are loads of people (literally everyone of my friends) that use MCCT's. nothing is a "install and forget" item in the machining world, so that comment doesn't apply...the MCCT's are easy to install and easy to maintain. here is the web link to a major MCCT supplier: http://www.aperaceparts.com/tech/tensioners.html . and here is the instructions for installing on a bike..."To set the tensioner adjustment, rotate the engine forward while screwing the tensioner bolt in. When you feel the engine tensioner parts (guide, rollers, etc.) make contact with the moving cam chain, back the tensioner bolt out 1/4 turn and tighten the jam nut. (For the finer pitch thread on the APE Pro Series tensioner it is advised to back the tensioner up 1/2 of a turn.)

DO NOT over-tighten the cam chain, as cam chain giude damage could occur. Be sure jam nut is tight against the tensioner body when complete."

this is how I have done MCCT's for the last 20-25 yrs, and I "reset" them about every 2 yrs, unless the chain starts to make sound...
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Old 03-16-2015, 09:15 AM   #13
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Just a thought (and I don't profess to have any knowledge on this subject) but if the manual tensioners require so little monitoring/maintenance why did BMW bother fitting an automatic one?

After all, I'm guessing a manual one must be cheaper than an auto.

As I said its not something I know about but something doesn't add up….

Craig
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Old 03-16-2015, 11:11 AM   #14
itsnumber42 OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1world1life View Post
Just a thought (and I don't profess to have any knowledge on this subject) but if the manual tensioners require so little monitoring/maintenance why did BMW bother fitting an automatic one?

After all, I'm guessing a manual one must be cheaper than an auto.

As I said its not something I know about but something doesn't add up….

Craig
I would ask that same question of every motorcycle built today, they all come with ACCT's, and most all fail eventually, and a lot of them get replaced by the owners with MCCT's...I believe that "in theory" it removes the interaction with people and the mechanical part of the bike...but when the ACCT costs 83.00 from BMW and there are riders out there that are going through them like tires, (I have replaced mine 2 times and only have 25000 miles on my bike) I would think a one time purchase of 75-100.00 would be more preferred...
they are not some "racer only" item, thousands have been sold to average riders that don't believe in constantly spreading the legs of their credit cards at the dealer for everything...
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Old 03-16-2015, 01:15 PM   #15
97707
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How about no chain.

I'd be interested in a chainless cam drive. No chain, no tensioner, just a couple of gear wheels between the crank shaft and the cam shaft.

Fewer moving parts, no stretch or breakage problems. Race car engines use this design. Its a little more expensive, maybe, but much more reliable.

Something like this



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