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Old 03-10-2012, 08:07 AM   #1
markk53 OP
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Tires for the street/trackers on a budget

I did a lot of digging recently when I bought tires for my SR500 street/tracker which is finally getting assembly after painting the frame and starting to put it together. The only stumbling blocks that are looming for me will be wiring harness territory and getting the tank painted like I want it,, but I have some help possible.

Now to tires...

After some digging on-line and through a bike shop, I've found the following for riders doing street/trackers with a 19/18 front/rear wheel set (and can't afford to do 19s front and rear).

The Dunlop K180 has become unobtanium. It was the DOT 3.50-19/4.00-18 tire combination made when the Sportster 883 class was run. Apparently it is no more. KK Supply couldn't get them and I couldn't find a source on-line. I'm pretty sure any out there will be priced accordingly - aka way too costly.

Of course the Dunlop K70 is still around for the Brit bike restoration and riders in the 3.50-19/4.00-18 sizes which are totally appropriate for the street/trackers like my SR. Problem is the soft compound used has the rear tire square off and wear out way too fast. They're around $120 each, but right now (3/2012) Bike Bandit has them for about $80 a piece on sale. A good choice, but poor rear wear.made me look further.



The Cheng Shin C180, a K70 copy in six ply (too stiff), apparently is no longer available now from what I've found - nothing out there.

That leads to the Duro HF 308, a Pirelli MT53 tread copy, that is used for Urals. The 4.00-19 is readily available, but is a six ply and I don't want that fat a front tire for road use. After digging around I found there was a full listing of Duro HF308s, but not much availability. I did come across a few sources for the 4.00-18 four ply tire and bought one for about $10 less than the on-sale K70. I did the Duro to see if it would give better wear and have decent performance.



As I said, I ordered one of the 4.00-18s and it seems to have a similar tread compound to the K70 based on that "ultra-reliable" thumb nail test. I'd buy another right now to save for later, but I'm waiting to see how it wears and performs. I don't trust my own thumb nail!

The 3.50-19 is not available from any source I could find, from Domiracer, the one ebay seller with the 4.00-18 I bought, or Tire Maniacs. The tire is shown on the Duro site, but their response to me was to try Parts Unlimited and other sources. No one had it. There are some 3.50-18s around for those doing a street/tracker with 18/18s, but no 19. The pricing was about $50 for the 19 at Domiracer, but none in stock. The sources for the 3.50-18 had them at around $50 and available. So if you're doing a bike with 18/18 you can do the Duros in matching tread 4 ply tires.

I'm writing this to simply point out a good looking very much vintage, flat track, brat bike type tread in a tire that does exist but more riders need to contact suppliers to demand it. No demand, no sale. If you're doing a 70s vintage bike and want to economize on it a bit the HF 308 is a legitimate consideration. Heck, the 4.00-19 is used as a Ural replacement tire, so they're selling them for that kind of bike. Now if we can get some vintage street/tracker, vintage, and brat bike riders to call for the 3.50-18, 3.50-19, and 4.00-18 sizes for their Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki, and other bikes, maybe Duro will listen and bring in a container load. If they did, I'd have a 3.50-19 tomorrow.

If this is of interest, contact Duro directly and maybe some of their sellers like Parts Unlimited (dealer wholesaler) and other sources. The contact is . http://www.durotire.com/Tires.aspx I've emailed them a couple of times on both the HF 308 and their dual sport tires (to compliment them on a good product). Let them know there are riders who woud buy their product.

Like I said right now for a rider like me to buy matching tread, it's either Dunlop K70 or nothing. I'd like to see this tire available for economical reasons and for a choice. I'm thinking based on my past experience with Duro tires, they will be a decent tire.

Any help out there? Put us on the map for decent vintage look tires for our trackers and such.
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Old 03-10-2012, 04:53 PM   #2
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As I mentioned in the streettracker thread the K180 is available here, but only in 18 and 21in sizes. The 120/90x18 wouldn't fit in my forks and so went for the K70's, very impressed with them on gravel and seal, but yes the traction comes at the cost of tyre wear. The centre tread of the K70 isn't full depth - so now the centre groove and half the cross bars have gone, but there is still a couple of mm to the TWI - and now it is dangerous in gravel. Not so much the traction, you can control that with your wrist, but the rear wheel loses it even under engine braking....I'll finish them off on seal.

Other tyres I've used on seal, gravel and dirttracks are competition trials tyres in 18in and speedway tyres in 19in. Like flattrack, trials and speedway rules required a DOT tyre, and they used to be marked as such, but not these days. I just looked at my 20 year old Kenda speedway and no DOT, but Not for Highway Use. I used to run an 18in trials tyre on the rear, and 19in speedway on the front....couldn't afford a relace.

The Pirelli MT43 is a DOT trials tyre, and has a stiffer sidewall and harder compound than the modern competition trials tyre - the enduro guys have discovered trials tyres, about times others had a look too. We used to use them front and rear on NZ dirttracks, and I think the Aussies are still using them. I don't know about the 6 ply Duro - the reason trials tyres and the K70 (and original MT53 ) work is because of sidewall flex,the sidewall flexes and they put down a huge contact patch. I don't think the 6 ply duro will do that - but we'll use you as a test mule.

I am leaning to MT43 for my next set of tyres.
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Old 03-11-2012, 03:35 AM   #3
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Then of course there is the TT100,comes in both 18 and 19in sizes, and available in race compound. Looks the part, and might be more acceptable to those who have difficulty coming to grips with a ''square'' tyre. But not so good on a dirttrack.
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Old 03-11-2012, 05:57 AM   #4
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Then of course there is the TT100,comes in both 18 and 19in sizes, and available in race compound. Looks the part, and might be more acceptable to those who have difficulty coming to grips with a ''square'' tyre. But not so good on a dirttrack.

Yes, that was the hot sportbike tire in the 60s and 70s. I just read about how the tire got its name in Classic Racer. Obviously had to do with either winning a 100 mile TT or doing an average 100 mph in a TT, but I forget right now. The problem with the new age superbikes of the 70s was the narrow center tread due to the V style profile to get more rubber on the road in a corner. The Z1 would smoke a TT100 aka K81 in short order. This led to the new improved K181 and eventually to the K591 Sport Elite.

Not a good street/tracker look if one knows what they're looking at, but great for cafe. That's part of the problem I, as a relatively knowledgable motorcyclist, have with those street/trackers with old fat Firestones on them. No way a racer ran them. They were too big and too heavy, plus for most of the bikes the tires are on, it is the wrong decade. They'd have been running a 4.00-18/4.00-18 or a 4.00-19/4.00-18 depending on the stock rims for most bikes converted to flat tracking on the cheap or 4.00-19/4.00-19 for bikes with that set up OEM or a bike fully set up for flat track. Per experience and from observation of what has worked, the 4.00-18 or 19 front tire is best on a dirt track for about any bike 125cc up. The back may vary a bit, but a 4.00 was most common on the back too.

In the 60s and 70s most Bultacos, Ossas, Yamahas, Hondas, etc ran the 18 rear rim and riders would put on a 19" spool set up or lace up a 19" rim. Since the tires were K70, MT53, and others that were common street tires, the 18 was easily available, so they didn't swap rear rims. When riders built specialized dirt trackers they did 19s front and rear so that they only dealt with one tire size, much easier. I also think there might have been the benefit of running a bit cooler with more roll out on the tire circumference. Because the pros ran one size - 4.00-19" - when specialized flat track tires started being made, they were only in 4.00-19".

The only seriously specialized tire ever made in the 18" and narrower 3.50-19" and 4.00-18", to my knowledge were the Dunlop K180s, although I'm not so sure after seeing the listing one guy put up for the K180 in New Zealand. Either Dunlop expanded the tire sizes from the dirt track versions for overseas markets or they simply brought in the tire sizes needed for the U.S. for the AMA Sportster 883 class. Regardless, the K180 had pretty much the exact same tread as the Goodyears. Dunlop is a subsidiary of Goodyear. By the way, that tread design had its origin in the mid 70s road race rain tires, which Kenny Roberts tried to run on his TZ750 in an attempt to get some traction after his first run at Indy. He ran the 18" rim size which was current rim size in roadracing at that time. He was trying anything to try to defend his title and win the championship that year, which didn't happen.

The newest pro tires are a fair amount wider, the Maxxis and Goodyear Eagle, and have some weird sizing. The Dunlop/Goodyear DTII comes in a 27x7.0-19 and 27.5x7.5-19, relating approximate OD, width, and rim size. Definitely wider than the 4.00. I'm not sure how true the K180 ran on the 4.00 and 3.50 widths. They did offer two compounds for the racing tire, which was DOT legal per class spec.

Now we all know more than we really needed to know. But as I said, the problem remains, the only realistic available old style or new style dirt track tread tires that actually are DOT legal are the K70 tire set, which doesn't offer a 4.00-19 and the Duro which has a stiff 4.00-19 and spotty availability of a more flexible 4 ply sidewall 4.00-18 and 3.50-18, but, apparently no availability of their 3.50-19 at the moment. Street/track riders and maybe even the vintage dirt track riders need to get ahold of Duro and maybe even Dunlop to get better availability and maybe a 4 ply 19 from Duro and a 4.00-19 from Dunlop and to bring in the K180 again. Maybe a pipe dream, but if riders ask, maybe it would happen.

Duro: .http://www.durotire.com/Tires.aspx
Dunlop: http://www.dunlopmotorcycle.com/tirecatalog.asp
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Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

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95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550
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Old 03-11-2012, 06:04 AM   #5
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The Pirelli MT43 is a DOT trials tyre, and has a stiffer sidewall and harder compound than the modern competition trials tyre - the enduro guys have discovered trials tyres, about times others had a look too. We used to use them front and rear on NZ dirttracks, and I think the Aussies are still using them. I don't know about the 6 ply Duro - the reason trials tyres and the K70 (and original MT53 ) work is because of sidewall flex,the sidewall flexes and they put down a huge contact patch. I don't think the 6 ply duro will do that - but we'll use you as a test mule.

I am leaning to MT43 for my next set of tyres.

No you won't. I'm not running the 6 ply 4.00-19 Duro. I'm running the 4.0-18 four ply Duro (MT53 type tread) on the rear and the 3.50-19" K70 on the front. Since I'm doing mainly street I'll do the 3.50. If I actually raced I'd be probably doing 19s with DTIIs like all the rest. Heck, I may end up there some time anyway.

I have an old Yamaha 19" cast wheel that matches the SR front wheel. I may see if a friend would machine some spacer/bearing support/sprocket and brake rotor adapters. I'm thinking just an adapter would put too much stress on the narrow bearing set of a front rim due to the sprocket loading. Simply getting a double bearing set up on the drive side would do the job. But right now I'm doing the 18. That and the DTIIs are not DOT legal and I'm not sure what using them would entail... probably nothing since no one ever has looked at any tire I've run for any DOT marking. It's probably more important in spec racing.

A friend used a 6 ply Cheng Shin (Cheng Boing as we used to call them) C180 4.00-18 on the back of his TM400 set up for flat track. He could fly on that bike, but handling was quite iffy, all told. What he lost in corners he made up for shooting down the straight. I remember putting that tire on the rim... that, if nothing else, is a good reason not to run a 6 ply. But I do agree I don't think the 6 ply is flexible enough to work well. If I was looking to run flat track on the cheap, using low buck tires I'd have 18" rims and run a 4.00-18 Duro HF 308 or Dunlop K70 front and rear. They aren't what the Eagle DTIIs are for racing, but I bet you could buy both Duros for the price of one DTII, possibly both the K70s if you find them on a good sale. I'm betting riding at my skill level the low buck tires would work well, a bit of tread cutting would help.
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Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

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95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550

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Old 03-11-2012, 06:35 AM   #6
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Omars make a wheel kit to use a 19" front on the rear. http://www.omarsdtr.com/homesitedtr.html Im just starting out racing dirt track. I had a great time last year racing a 250 Astro in Dist 14 vintage. Ive been looking for tires to. I'd like to get Maxxis DT but there hard to find. I was looking at this race compound tire from Heidenau. The tread looks like something that may work. http://www.heidenau-tires.com/k34r-vintage-racing-tire/:
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Old 03-11-2012, 08:43 AM   #7
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That tire looked good, but I looked at the Heidenau site and couldn't find the K34 on their site. I did find them at Revzilla, but no 4.00-18. Nothing but 3.25-19 in stock. More expensive than the sale priced K70 or standard priced HF 308 to boot.

Still there is the problem, availability of the right size tires. In print doesn't mean in stock. That is why I mention contacting manufacturers. To mention filling in the market for the missing sizes with the lower priced and apparently decent quality Duros along with the missing Dunlop 4.00-19 K70.

I am not too sure of the Omar's 19 kit, I've seen it, but I don't know if it has an additional bearing in the sprocket adapter or not. At $295 for the kit I have a friend who does hydraulics machining that could make the parts for me and include an outside bearing on the sprocket side, maybe on both sides to distribute the load over two bearings and a wider spread. He'd probably do it for a good price, probably free, but that wouldn't be right. I'm thinking I'm going to take a serious look at setting up my spare 19 with adapters. No rush, but apparently tire availability is playing a major roll here. Heck I may look for a set of RD400 front wheels to do the job using 18s to fit the Dunlop or Duro due to availability if I want to run 4.00 front and rear for reasonable money.

Apparently the Maxxis is THE tire to run. I've looked at the Flat Track Community forum and there was some question about getting them for Daytona. I guess the Goodyears are available, but not so much the Maxxis. Here was a reply to the tires thread there...

"Durelle Racing has a large stock of Maxxis and Goodyear tires . Plus he is an advertiser in this site .Go to durelleracing.com or call 1-877-737-7337 . There are more Maxxis on the way ! "

Same problem again at the moment - no stock. But they could probably help later, after the initial demand.
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Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

Mark - klx678
95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550

markk53 screwed with this post 03-11-2012 at 09:13 AM
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Old 03-12-2012, 03:16 AM   #8
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TM400 set up for flat track.
I used a TS/TM400 hybrid on our pear shaped car dirttrack. When I first used the TS400 as a street bike I didn't like the 19in front wheel and fitted the TM front end from a wreck I had. I also used the TM top end which is a good mod as the TS igntion smooths out the power band, and the added flywheel weight helps too. But when I dirttracked it the 21in front wheel was terrible,so fitted the 19in into the TM forks. That's when I used the 3.75x19 Kenda Speedway tyre with a 4.00x18 trials tyre on the rear. The 2 stroke was fun because you need to take a wider entry and 2 wheel drift into the turn - with no engine braking it's like pulling in the clutch. We had a sweeper and a hairpin - on the hairpin I'd use all the front brake I had, put the left bar below my knee and just pivot it around that huge front tyre.

Another tyre I'm interested in is the Kenda K280, comes in a 4.60x18, so probably close to a 120/90, and won't fit in my forks.



Another tyre showing on our Cycletread website is Golden Boy - they do a 4.00x18 trials tyre which looks interesting and cheap. But listed as not available and no info on Google.
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:22 AM   #9
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Shinko 244's ?






Shinko 705's?

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Old 03-12-2012, 12:43 PM   #10
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Continental Escape ?
Front 100/90-19 TL, rear 4.10-18 TT (actually it is TL)

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Old 03-12-2012, 05:06 PM   #11
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None of those tires remotely resemble the tires used on flat track bikes. They're all dual sport tires. It's about authenticity. It's not hard to get the tire sizes I mentioned in a coarse dual sport tread. It is hard to get them in an authentic flat track tire tread. Besides, if I have my way I'll have the bike on a short track at least once this summer and want the right tires to play.

The tires I mentioned, the treads shown were actually used by virtually every flat tracker from the mid sixites on until the advent of the Goodyear DTII which is still the tire tread design used today. It's not just about having some fat coarse tread tire on the bike like so many who seem to think that's what it's all about. It's about having the real deal on the bike, the actual or similar tires used pre-DTII.

I ran a Dunlop K70 4.00-19 on the front and a Pirelli MT53 (tread copied by Duro) 4.00-18 on the back of my Bultaco Sherpa S 175 back in 1972. Friends ran Dunlops, Pirellis, and a similar tread Carlisle in similar sizes. It's about the real deal. The only guys runnig dual sportish or trials tires back then were doing so only because they hadn't gone full-on flat tracking, they were running what they had in the garage.

I posted this to try to see if some others doing street/trackers or play flat trackers and wanted to be authentic would maybe contact the suppliers to ask for the tires to be available.

Looks like I'm just going to have to set up a set of 18s to run the tires I can get - Duro HF308 and Dunlop K70 in 4.00-18. Or go illegal and do 19s to run flat track racing tires... maybe I can buy used worn ones cheap.
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Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

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95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550

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Old 03-12-2012, 10:39 PM   #12
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The only guys runnig dual sportish or trials tires back then were doing so only because they hadn't gone full-on flat tracking, they were running what they had in the garage.
As I mentioned down here we were running trials and speedway tyres for a couple of reasons - real dirttrack tyres weren't available, and track rules prohibited knobs, but allowed a trials and speedway pattern. The K70 and MT53 wouldn't be very good on the loose speedway tracks. I can't find any phot's on Kiwi flattrack, but here is an Aussie one, we used 4.00x18 front and rear, they seem to keep the 21in. check out the tyre flex on that rear trials tyre.



Like you I put my streettracker together because I wanted to recreate dirttrack handling for my backroads and gravel road bike, not for the looks or to follow a trand.
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:24 PM   #13
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Actually I've found a little on NZ flattrack, and as a SR/TT500 owner you might enjoy this. OWL has been a good friend of mine for 40 years, but when he was organising flattrack in Auckland and writing the MNZ rules for Stock Bikes as we called it, I was on an island off Auckland and rode dirttrack there....when I came back to Auckland in 1996 it was all over.

http://owlmorris-ttsr500.4t.com/catalog_3.html
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Old 03-13-2012, 05:33 PM   #14
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As I mentioned down here we were running trials and speedway tyres for a couple of reasons - real dirttrack tyres weren't available, and track rules prohibited knobs, but allowed a trials and speedway pattern. The K70 and MT53 wouldn't be very good on the loose speedway tracks. I can't find any phot's on Kiwi flattrack, but here is an Aussie one, we used 4.00x18 front and rear, they seem to keep the 21in. check out the tyre flex on that rear trials tyre.



Like you I put my streettracker together because I wanted to recreate dirttrack handling for my backroads and gravel road bike, not for the looks or to follow a trand.

The K70s and MT53s along with the Goodyear Eagle DT (can't find a shot of those)and the Carlisles

which had somewhat similar tread were what was on 99% of any pictures of any U.S. flat trackers you may see before 1976 or so. That was what was run on every track in the U.S. up until the newest roadrace rain tire type Goodyears in around 1977.

Notice on the iconic Ron Wood Norton big tube frame:





You will notice the middle picture you can see "Pirelli". It is the MT53 which was the tire at the time.

Here are a few others at the VFT site:




Dunlop K70...

Thus my comments about period correct. Of course I'd love to go more modern, but there aren't any K180s any longer in the U.S.
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Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

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95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550

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Old 03-22-2012, 04:21 PM   #15
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Here's an old school dirt track tire:



here's another...



This is a street tracker project going tracker first...



Street second.
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Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

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95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550
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