ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-17-2012, 08:33 PM   #61
IheartmyNx
Ihave2draft
 
IheartmyNx's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Nashville TN, no chit, police state.
Oddometer: 3,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by klaviator View Post
[COLOR=Red]Absolutely true!!
[COLOR=Black]

[COLOR=White]However, not all accidents are caused by complete idiots. Many accidents are caused by lack of skill.
Statistics or GTFO!

The Government uses statistics to: justify their budgets, track the rise and fall of crimes, justify the new rules/regs they imply on us... And so-fourth.

So unless you can PROVE what you're saying, there really is no point in saying it.

__________________
Everyday IS 3/11!
Everybody's always talking out the side of their mouths about our "dependency on foreign oil", what about our dependency on cheap china crap? Who exactly again is killing our dollar?

IheartmyNx screwed with this post 03-17-2012 at 08:39 PM
IheartmyNx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2012, 08:47 PM   #62
klaviator OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
klaviator's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Location: Huntsville, AL
Oddometer: 5,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by IheartmyNx View Post
Statistics or GTFO!

The Government uses statistics to: justify their budgets, track the rise and fall of crimes, justify the new rules/regs they imply on us... And so-fourth.

So unless you can PROVE what you're saying, there really is no point in saying it.
Do you have any statistics to back up what you just posted?????
__________________
I ride, Therefore I Am.



klaviator is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2012, 08:49 PM   #63
IheartmyNx
Ihave2draft
 
IheartmyNx's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Nashville TN, no chit, police state.
Oddometer: 3,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by klaviator View Post
Do you have any statistics to back up what you just posted?????
Well... Considering it's not a statistic... No.

Fact, yes.

Statistic is statistical, like a bar graph or chart... There is no need to track what I said in hopes of proving a point.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,490629,00.html
__________________
Everyday IS 3/11!
Everybody's always talking out the side of their mouths about our "dependency on foreign oil", what about our dependency on cheap china crap? Who exactly again is killing our dollar?
IheartmyNx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2012, 08:50 PM   #64
Kommando
Grumpy Young Man
 
Kommando's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: Spacecoaster FL
Oddometer: 7,079
Yup...Miles and years can mean little. I rode for years without taking a rider course. I'd done cross-country trips, and commuted in big-city traffic. I took a BRC and improved my bike handling, as well as my attitude, in the span of a weekend. It got me curious about what else I could learn and how I could improve. I got a dualsport and started riding more technical dirt than my streetbikes had been able to comfortably handle. I'm a LOT more comfortable now keeping a bike on it's rubber when things go wrong...road debris to swerve around, front wheel slides on a patch of sand/gravel, rear wheel slides on a patch of spilled liquid, grooves/ledges in the pavement that make the tires dance around...these are non-issues now. I'm not even a good dirt rider yet either.

Rider courses and licensing can differ greatly.

Licensing in Illinois was a joke. Pass a simple multiple-choice written test and you could legally ride a liter sportbike/half-ton cruiser during the daytime if one of your licensed buddies rode alongside. Ride around some cones, swerve, and quick-stop on a 150cc scooter at the DMV range and you could ride your liter sportbike/half-ton cruiser home from the DMV solo. A BRC was not required in Illinois, but a 2-1/2 day (20hrs) one is offered for free. They ask for a donation though, and most people do contribute, from what I've seen. It is well worth the $20 deposit, IMO, especially for new riders. They cover a LOT of material, practice drills, and evals in a weekend. Passing students receive a waiver for the moto range test at the DMV, and the final eval is MUCH more comprehensive than the DMV's range eval. Riders passing the course ARE able to operate a 200cc moto in an empty parking lot if blinkers are not involved. A basic driver license is required to enter the course, so it is already assumed that one understands traffic laws/signage.

FL requires a BRC for new riders. I believe it's 2 days (16hrs). I don't know what they cover, but directional signals (DOT lighting in general, for that matter), situational awareness, and proactive collision avoidance don't seem to be a part of the curriculum. Many riders here seem totally clueless about how to achieve long-term survival on public roads. For that matter, the cagers are usually even worse, but at least they have a cage/seatbelt/airbag. It's a good thing that traffic is fairly light here unless one is in a big city. I'd just stay home if they ever got any snow/ice accumulation, and I have no qualms about driving in blizzard conditions in northern mountains. There would be mass destruction and devastation on the roads here. It's not even the stereotyped old people either. It's the everyday people commuting and running errands. They do the most senseless and idiotic things you can imagine, and even some things that you can't. Traffic in FL, as light as it usually is, is a circus.

Do NOT try riding in FL city traffic on vacation, especially in the busier southern cities, unless you are fully prepared to deal with the most idiotic driver actions on an ongoing basis. CA commuting does NOT prepare you for south FL drivers, BTW. CA drivers are MUCH more aware, better behaved, and skilled, on average. Drivers from rural TX that find themselves in SoFL city traffic will probably want to pull over, when it's safe to do so, and cry...or politely just shoot somebody that is seemingly trying to kill everybody in surrounding traffic.
Kommando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2012, 06:08 AM   #65
Pantah
Patriot Nation?
 
Pantah's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: India Wharf
Oddometer: 10,118
As a former military pilot, I think the only thing that translated directly to my riding safety is the habit pilots develop scanning the sky and the cockpit constantly. Such a habit on a public highways improves defensive riding. The truth is, I learned a lot more about riding motorcycles on the race track where I experienced what a motorcycle can and can't do in my hands.

Private pilots kill themselves all the time. They do stupid things, most frequently around an airport in bad weather. It is so bad that the aircraft industry stopped producing personal aircraft after about 1980. Why? Insurance costs proved prohibitive. Nobody wanted to insure a private pilot, and for obvious reasons. Even today, most of the fleet out there is very old.

I have a friend who was a salesman for Cessna in the late 70's. He told me all is salesman colleagues were dead. Weather, vertigo, mechanicals, whatever...
__________________
Straight ahead and faster -Bo Weaver 1970
"There I was..." -Griffin Niner Three Hotel
"One day closer to a parade..." Jonny Gomes, spring training 2013
Pantah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2012, 07:15 PM   #66
ParrotheadJeff
Guest
 
Oddometer: n/a
I'm an aviation enthusiast and not a pilot because I never had the money to go through the training and then know I'd be able to fly enough to stay as proficient as I'd want to be. I've flown several planes with an instructor or licensed pilot in the other seat.

I did, however, just get my motorcycle license and my first bike last year. I've also been driving for nearly 20 years after learning on the streets and interstates of southern California. Dad was California Highway Patrol for 31 years and taught me quite a bit.

Knowing what's involved in all three - plane, motorcycle, and car licenses - I'd say that I'm glad motorcycles and cars aren't the same as pilot licenses. Yes, there are more and stricter requirements for getting a pilot's license, but just about anyone I know could learn and retain enough information to pass the tests. They usually don't do so because of the cost. That extra expense comes from many different areas and might be lowered if a mass market were achieved through massive demand. The trouble is, you'd need the demand which would mean that a bunch of people would need to pay up on the costs to get the ball rolling and I can't see that happening.

If the requirements to get a motorcycle license were as high as those of a pilot's license, many more people would decline to do so and ride anyway. I think the main reasons for not seeing this happen more often in aviation are the cost of the vehicles involved (which will never apply to motorcycles) and the combined complexity and danger of the operating environment. Someone who doesn't have a motorcycle license but wants to ride anyway is more likely to do so than to fly a plane without a license due to the lack of active traffic control (communication with ground control and pilots in other aircraft) and the fact that they don't have to worry about crashing into the ground at as a high of a rate of speed from a great height.

No, I'd much rather have people deal with the DMV test and a test so that they're more likely to get a license and insurance. If they have a license, I know they've gone through some sort of training (which is much better than none) and if they have insurance then my girlfriend and soon to be child would at least get some money from the person's policy if the worst happen and they kill me.

I wouldn't have been able to afford a motorcycle license if the process was like a pilot's license. It was a stretch at the time to get the $250 together for the MSF course, but I wanted to do it the best way I could. I wouldn't be on a motorcycle, either, and I'd be missing out on a lot of good stuff

That's just my two cents - take it for what it's worth
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 03:09 AM   #67
Josh69
Uhhh
 
Josh69's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Euroland
Oddometer: 593
Oh the other difference between flying and riding is the timescale over which problems develop. On a bike, you could go from upright and enjoying the sunny scenery to sliding down the road in 2 seconds.

As a private pilot, in a single engine airplane, even in the event of a total loss of engine power, I'd have between about 10 seconds to 10 minutes until the situation reached its conclusion. There is time for a lot more thinking and a lot more planning flying a plane.

Private flying does have a bad safety record. Usually this is due to "gethomeitis" ie flying in weather conditions where you should just stay on the ground and wait or general flying outside your skill level. A smaller number are maybe structural or control surface failures: unlike a 747, there is minimal redundancy in a light aircraft.
Josh69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 04:36 AM   #68
Ceri JC
UK GSer
 
Ceri JC's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Location: All over, usually Wales or England
Oddometer: 2,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mambo Dave View Post
I'm a supporter of tiered MC licensing as well - would you disagree to that first tier being under, say, 35 HP though?
We have almost exactly that restriction here [UK]. You can bypass the waiting period (where you're stuck with the slower bikes) by doing a more intense form of training and then taking your test on a bigger bike. A lot of the old school seem to resent people being able to jump straight to big bikes, rather than "working their way up" as they used to. I disagree; if I am able to pass a test that legally recognises me as competent to ride a bigger bike, I should be allowed to ride one if I'm of age.

Far too much emphasis is placed on "time you've had a licence", both by the licencing system, the courts and riders themselves. It's a terrible metric: IMO, Miles ridden is the best indicator of a rider's competence, then the amount of advanced training they've had, followed closely by the breadth of variation of the conditions they've ridden in*. Time you've held a licence should almost be seen as a negative factor: If you have 100,000 miles experience on a bike over the past 50 years on dozens bikes, do you think you're safer than someone who racked up the same mileage, but they have done it all in the last 3 years on the same bike they ride today? I'd argue the latter person's skills will typically be better and their experience more relevant to today's roads (which is all that matters, unless you've got some sort of Delorean motorcycle).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mambo Dave View Post
I mean, I like it, but ... why not have tiered car licenses then? And, if so, what would car tiers be?
I view car restriction as less important. How many 21 year olds would be able to acquire a 186mph car, compared to how many can get their hands on a litre sportsbike? Almost any 33bhp motorcycle, even a "bad choice" of a restricted bike like a castrated litre sportsbike (yes, they exist), as opposed to an Aprilia RS250, will piss all over 99% of cars on the road at anything approaching road legal speeds, so long as the rider is capable. Consequently, 33bhp on a bike is less of an imposition than, say 50bhp, on a car would be. No 170bhp superbike for 2 years just means they don't want you joining in on all the, "max out the bike at dawn in the mountains and then outrun the police chopper" fun of larger bikes till you have a bit more experience. No bad thing in my eyes.

That said, a car limit of, say, 100bhp restriction (and an upper total weight limit) and more stringent speeding penalties** for the n00bs would be a good thing in my eyes: They're rare, but that doesn't make the spoiled 18 year old in a ferrari any less dangerous (statistically).


* Try racking up 100,000 highways miles in the rural USA and then come and ride London city traffic.
**We have this one at least: you have fewer "strikes" on your licence as a n00b here and the courts tend to take a dimmer view of younger folk speeding.
__________________
I like my bike because I can overtake 4x4s down farm tracks with a week's worth of shopping on the back.
Ceri JC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 09:50 AM   #69
dwoodward
Beastly Adventurer
 
dwoodward's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Pacific NorthWet, Napa Valley North
Oddometer: 5,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clockwatcher View Post
I agree with dbuzz.....tiered liscencing would be the way to go. 1-3 yrs have less than 50 hp , 3-5 less than 75hp , after 5yrs unlimited.
Personally I think inexperience is the cause of single bike crashes.(of course stupidity has a hand too)
Just sayin'..........
Define "experience". Hint: Riding the same 1000 miles for 20 years doesn't get you there.

Here's my thought. Make the endorsement renewal fee the same as the cost for a one day class (ERC, for example). Waive that fee if applicant shows they have taken an ERC in the previous six months. Riders now have a cost-neutral option- Pay the price of admission (and risk learning / improving skills) or just pay the fee.

Won't solve the problem of riders w/o endorsements, but Oregon already has a plan for that one ($720 fine, dismissed if the rider passes a beginner class within 120 days).
dwoodward is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 10:17 AM   #70
Loutre
Cosmopolitan Adv
 
Loutre's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Location: Reaver's Heart :o)
Oddometer: 3,468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reryder View Post
You've got it all wrong.
Leave motorcycle licensing as it is already.
And make all the car drivers and truck drivers go through the process you described.
that's kinda the way to go. I mean why can a 18 (16 in USA) year old drive a porsche because Daddy can afford it but at the end he'll kill him/herself. In FR, like in Germany, we do have the same restriction: 34hp bike for everyone who is <21 years old. it's kind of a graduate system. even the insurance companys won't take you if you're just out of driving school and want to ride a S1000RR.
I think for car drivers it should be the same. no one should be driving a car that he can't handle. restrictions are made but to the wrong persons. my 0.02$

and btw I'm a 21 year old student and aware of how bad young noobies are drving :o)
__________________
Keep the smile on your face!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaver View Post
You can be imitated but not replaced. You're such a special blend the recipe is guarded like KFC's 11 herbs and spices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaver View Post


Loutre is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 01:09 PM   #71
dwoodward
Beastly Adventurer
 
dwoodward's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Pacific NorthWet, Napa Valley North
Oddometer: 5,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loutre View Post
that's kinda the way to go. I mean why can a 18 (16 in USA) year old drive a porsche because Daddy can afford it but at the end he'll kill him/herself. In FR, like in Germany, we do have the same restriction: 34hp bike for everyone who is <21 years old. it's kind of a graduate system. even the insurance companys won't take you if you're just out of driving school and want to ride a S1000RR.
I think for car drivers it should be the same. no one should be driving a car that he can't handle. restrictions are made but to the wrong persons. my 0.02$

and btw I'm a 21 year old student and aware of how bad young noobies are drving :o)
The gross error in thinking is that age is equivalent to experience. According to age limit schemes, most professional racers should have been limited to mopeds well past the time they were earning a living by demonstrating profound skill.
dwoodward is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 01:54 PM   #72
lemieuxmc
Banned
 
lemieuxmc's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: East La Jolla... it's just Clairemont!!
Oddometer: 3,360
Last time I checked, you don't need a state MC endorsement to race the Daytona 200, just an AMA pro license.

On the other hand... Jose Jimenez is cruising the streets of Los Angeles in his $500 beater blissfully free of the influence of the DMV.
lemieuxmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 03:01 PM   #73
dwoodward
Beastly Adventurer
 
dwoodward's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Pacific NorthWet, Napa Valley North
Oddometer: 5,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemieuxmc View Post
Last time I checked, you don't need a state MC endorsement to race the Daytona 200, just an AMA pro license.
My point was that age is not skill. Jorge Lorenzo, age 21 just got his endorsement this past winter; I'm pretty sure he's been OK to ride any damn moto he cared to for several years now.

It's not operator skill that's strictly the problem, it's attitude and discipline. JL may, or may not, have that. I know a lot of thirty-somethings that don't.

Quote:
On the other hand... Jose Jimenez is cruising the streets of Los Angeles in his $500 beater blissfully free of the influence of the DMV.
Jose Jimenez, the famous astronaut? When did he move out from Nevada?
dwoodward is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 03:25 PM   #74
DAKEZ
Beastly Adventurer
 
DAKEZ's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: OR
Oddometer: 19,697
Just say “NO!” to tiered licensing

__________________
“Watch out for everything bigger than you, they have the "right of weight"
Bib
DAKEZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 03:40 PM   #75
HH
Hurricane Harry
 
HH's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Location: Seattle/Dahlonega
Oddometer: 1,454
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
Just say “NO!” to tiered licensing



it's too late for us in wa
HH is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 01:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014