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Old 03-19-2012, 10:18 AM   #1
viseGrip OP
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The SynLube Affair - synthetic oils in MC's (warning: only for anal-retentive types)

been doing some research into synthetic engine oils which included a rather interesting email exchange with one of the SynLub Lube-4-Life fellas. clearly there is some bias here as he only trusts vehicles with 6 wheels - 4 on the ground, 1 in the trunk and one in the drivers hands, as he puts it.

still, he brings some rather interesting comments and data to the table. see for yourself...

me:
Quote:
hi

i have an '07 DR650SE and became interested in your products after some
research

as far as i can tell, SynLube should be fine in an air cooled bike
engine with a wet clutch, but please let me know if this is not the case

also wondering if you have oil filters available for this engine and, if
not, could you recommend some high quality filter companies that offer
synthetic media?

thanks!
SynLube (sends 3 replies):
Quote:
SynLube reduces friction by 60% so it is not suitable for use where now over 20 years obsolete API oil categories are necessary for use like in bikes that have certified useful life of only 30,000 km (18,000 miles) (CLASS 3), they are basically designed to be disposable and have the worst possible lube system design with total disregard for tribological knowledge available for last 50 years - that is one fluid is used for everything which is esentially a poor design, so the use of oil that you DO NOT CHANGE would be of absolutely no benefit, and only low cost oil and filter changed as often as you can (even every 500 miles or 50 hours or less of operation) will make slight difference in useful life.

In your case the bike is already past the design life of 5 years, if not by mileage also, so just do what ever you have done as it apparently worked for you.
Perhaps the only cost effective investment would be the installation of FILTER MAGNET (see MAGNETS) on our web, at least that way the wear materials will be trapped in the oil filter and not cause a secondary wear. The filter magnets are by filter diameter most likely yours is about 2 to 2.5 inches diameter.

The UNIMAG covers 100% of the filter diameter the FILTERMAG 50%,

To match the oil filter we would need FRAM or AC equivalent part number as no technical data is released by SUZUKI for any of their products.

Syn-cerely

Miro Kefurt
SynLube:
Quote:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/...644_0d9_hn.pdf

According to above it is as simple model as was legally possible in 2007 MY, i.e. no emission control, catalyst or EFI.

So I would think it does not have spin on filter or even a pressure lubrication, thus even the use of the magnet is not possible.

Just use cheap oil and change it often that is about all you can do!

API SE or lower quality is probably the best as any oil with friction modifiers will adversely affect the clutch.

see www.api.org for API Oil Ratings if you do not know what they are.

Since such oils are not made for about 26 years for Automotive application due to their technological obsolescence (they would damage modern engines with OBD II systems), you just have to look for "specialty" motorcycle oils that are obsolete oils repackaged in fancy bottles and sold at premium because they are no longer produced by any major oil company, but some independents sometimes have such low quality batches available due to production glitches.

Miro Kefurt
SynLube:
Quote:
http://www.api.org/certification-programs/engine-oil-diesel-exhaust-fluid/~/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Publications/Engine-Oil-Guide-2010-120210.ashx

Link to API Motor Oil categories, note there are NO classifications for Motorcycles as they are not considered to be of significiant market importance in USA and are not generally durable to run any engine sequence on them.

Miro Kefurt
me:
Quote:
hi Miro - thanks for the information you've sent!

re: the DR650SE...

the filter is an internal cartridge type. K&N part...
http://www.knfilters.com/search/prod...px?Prod=KN-137

almost all bikes (if not every single one) have a 'single chamber' case, if you will, using the same oil for trans and engine. some will have a dry clutch and some wet which, again, uses the engine oil.

as far as engine longevity, from personal experience and reading what others have to say, the 18,000 mi. service limit seems very conservative. guys are typically going well beyond 25,000 mi. with normal oil consumption, and in at least some cases exceeding 50K and 70K mi. many street bikes can and do go much further (30K on my personal KZ750 and never touched the engine and it ran like new when sold)

Suzuki is not the best quality manufacturer of motorcycles, granted, but the DR/DR-Z line are well established with a very long track record and a huge number of fans

by the way, mine has 766 mi. which is why i'm interested in lubrication - if it had over 10K or so i wouldn't care about the oil so much and certainly wouldn't be considering running a super quality syn

i very much appreciate you taking the time to help me and provide documentation and, especially, for being honest about the use of SynLube in a bike. in the end i think i'll probably run Amsoil which, to my knowledge, is pretty good oil

if you have any suggestions for high quality filter manufactures, i'm all ears (just brand names i mean - i don't expect you to cross-reference for me). i'm interested in micro/synthetic fiber media that will trap the really small stuff

thanks much for furthering my education!!! i'm not usually overly anal about my vehicles, but i like to research lubricants and filters since they are a big key to longevity
SynLube:
Quote:
Use of any Synthetic oil in your application is just total waste of money, frequent oil changes is the only thing you can do, and about 500 miles or 50 hours would be optimal.

We have many customers with bikes like Harley and BMW where the engine oil is separate, and they do indeed last "longer" but the fact is that no motorcycle manufacturer that sells bikes in USA has EVER certified any longer than for the MINIMUM for class III bikes which is 30,000 km =18,000 mi "useful life".

I would think is anyone would want to establish "superiority" they could certify them for longer life but they do NOT !

Engine designers thing of bike engines a candles that burn bright and fast, and with the exception of very expensive exotic cars no one in the automotive consumer business would stay in business very long if they made engines for cars to the same specifications, i.e. incredible HP from minimal displacement and minimum component weight - even racing engines that only last about 50 hours on average are made more robust!

Currently we do not have any bike fleets, but few years ago we had BMW Police bikes from NY State and they only kept them 25,000 miles or about 6 months, as if they tried to keep them any longer the resale value was next to nothing at auction, so the lowest cost was to them with frequent trade-ins. Engine had separate oil. And they ran them without any oil changes and with the spin on MicroGlass filter and TWO RA300 magnets.

We still have one customer than bought one Police BMW at auction and found about the "black oil" that was in it and has been using SynLube ever since he now has 73K miles (no oil changes but it burns about 1 L ever 3,000 miles), and all the Harley customers we have usually need expensive engine work by 50K that costs more than the value of the bike at that time, they also ALL without exception have oil leaks.

I personally do not trust anything that does not have 6 wheels (4 on the ground, a spare and one in my hand), but I do have extensive experience with HONDA horizontal twins as they were used in the AN/AZ 600 cars in USA. (But DRY CLUTCH was used due to the fact the car was 1275 lbs, wet clutch just would not last more than few weeks. Or one day in San Francisco as they found out the hard way before they changed it for USA.

SO changing the oil and the filter is the only magic you can do, as NO lubricant is designed to do all that happens to it in single fill engine case where metals of at least 4 different types end up as wear, clutch linings, synchro bits, lot lot lot of fuels (due to carburetor and blow by) and thus trying to use any oil for even 2,500 miles is beyond its capabilities, especially in air cooled unit with accidental cooling where the NORMAL oil temperature will be about 320 F on the oil, in automotive application anything over 265 F is engine failure time if petroleum is used.

At 300 F you have about 2 hours of "lube" life and at 320 F about 1/2 of that, that is just chemical fact that oxidation rate doubles for every 15F increase in temperature and NORMAL for cars is 190 to 220 F.

One reason there are no API certification for motorcycle oils, they just can not survive even the shortest engine test designed for automotive applications which are FAR MORE easier on the lubricant (temperature and contamination).

Too cold is perhaps even worse for wear and anything under 170 F is problematic since anti wear additives do not work at temperatures below that.

SO air cooled engine is in reality only happy for about 15 minutes between being TOO COLD and TOO HOT.

Syn-cerely

Miro Kefurt

www.synlube.com

PS: to my knowledge no one makes cartridge filters for bikes that are not made from paper (cellulose) as there just is no market for it since almost every engine uses different filter and thus only hand full of companies even bother to make such filters even in paper version.

PS: We do have SAE 5W-40 non colloidal Motor Oil for "OLD" diesels, that does not have the anti friction additives, it is capable of operation at 500 F. Few people used it in HONDA GoldWing with no problems, but that engine being Water Cooled and more like a car on two wheels does not stress the oil as much as what your application does.



05400
Lube-4-Life® for Engines (motor oil)
• NON-COLOIDAL Version •
(Initial & Add) •
SAE 5W-40 • 1 Liter
$25.00



Price is per Liter and includes shipping. That would NOT make the clutch slip. The oil would definitely outlast your bike, but you would still have to change the oil filters at least every 3 months. Since that takes more time than draining the oil, then unless you are really fanatic about your bike, it would not save you any time or money in the long run comparing to frequent oil changes with low quality petroleum oil.
me:
Quote:
there's a couple points i'd like to make regarding the information you've provided...

"useful life" - you mentioned "class 3" for motorcycles and i didn't really understand what this referred to. i just happened to be reading my manual and found this information in a section titled "emission control warranty". so the first point is that the 5 year/18K mi. "useful life" figures appear under a section having to do with emissions and i wonder how, or even 'if', these figures actually apply to real-world, mechanical service life. if the implication is that the useful mechanical life of a motorcycle engine is 5 years/18K mi., whichever comes first, this is simply completely silly and, therefore, i am inclined to believe these figures are influenced by politics having to do with emissions rather than real-world, mechanical service life and i think this can be supported by the following...

1) motorcycles are simply not scrapped after 5 years/18K mi.
2) it appears the majority of used bikes on the market are older than 5 years and, at the very least, many of them are older than 5 years.
3) there are countless instances of motorcycle engines lasting well beyond 5 years and 18K mi. without major engine repairs. in fact this seems to be the norm, not the exception, including from my own experience

the point here is that real-world data simply doesn't support an average mechanical service life of 5 years or 18,000 mi.

this is from a dealer that sells MC parts. it happens to be specific to the Suzuki DR650, but i don't think there's much doubt, at least not by MC riders, that it can be applied to motorcycles in general...

source: http://tinyurl.com/7s57ktz

--- quote ---
Q: How long would it take to wear out a DR 650?

How many miles does the average DR650 last as far as everything goes? I recently found a 2005 for $2500 with 11,000 miles on it. I know they are pretty bulletproof but I just want to be sure I am buying something that will last.

A: We don't see anybody wearing them out. There are lots of guys around with more than 50K miles on them. Most folks don't get to ride enough to wear any motorcycle out!
--- end quote ---


further supporting that the 5 yr/18K mi. figures are tied to politics rather than the real-world is a document from the EPA titled "Summary and Analysis of Comments: Control of Emissions from Highway Motorcycles"

source: http://www.scribd.com/doc/1301014/15...II-Useful-Life

--- quote ---
3.2 Class III Useful Life

What We Proposed:

Useful life is the period over which a manufacturer must demonstrate the effectiveness of the emission control system. The current useful life for Class III motorcycles is 5 years or 30,000km, whichever occurs first. Based on usage data supplied by an industry trade organization, we estimated that the average operating life of highway motorcycles is well above our current useful life definition. We requested comment on, but did not propose, extending the useful life by up to10,000 km to reflect a value more consistent with actual use.

What Commenters Said:

MIC opposed a longer useful life for Class III motorcycles for three reasons. First, a longer useful life is not consistent with the stated goal of harmonizing with the California standards, and that a longer useful life would result in greater catalyst usage to meet the federal standards than would be required in California. Second, increased useful life isn’t consistent with usage patterns of smaller Class III motorcycles. Finally, MIC commented that a 40,000 km useful life in based on the projected accumulated distance at 10 years, a point at which 34 percent of vehicles have already been retired from service. MIC stated that since motorcycles don’t stay in service as long a passenger cars, it isn’t equitable to define the useful life of both types of vehicles at the same, 10-year age.

Harley-Davidson opposes any changes to the Class III useful life. Harley-Davidson stated that California considered and rejected an increased useful life requirement in its December 1998emission regulations. Extending the useful life would defeat the goal of harmonization with California and undermine manufacturers’ efforts to meet those regulations. Harley-Davidson also commented that what little data exists on usage does not support an increased useful life and suggests that annual per motorcycle usage is less than 4,200 km. Finally, Harley-Davidson commented that while riders are increasing the miles they ride each year on highway motorcycles, multiple motorcycle ownership is also increasing, meaning that total vehicle miles are being spread over more motorcycles
--- end quote ---



regarding oil temperature, i did some research on this and it appears average oil temperatures for motorcycle engines are well below the 300+ F figure you mention, so i'm a bit curious as to where you got this figure. if that figure is for head temps, it would make sense, but not for oil according to what i'm seeing, which seems to be around the low to mid 200 F range...

http://www.topgunmotorcycles.com/ti_.../ti2oct06.html
http://tinyurl.com/az3u3
http://tinyurl.com/88myfk8
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...mperature-7882
http://www.nortonclub.com/docs/OilTemp.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-...win_Cam_engine
http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/a.../t-505331.html
http://board.mcnews.com/Topic38001-9-1.aspx

lastly, i would agree that MC engines present a far more hostile environment for engine oil than cars. what doesn't make sense to me is why you would state that using synthetic oil is simply a waste of money under these conditions when this seems to be exactly the environment that synthetic oils were designed for - high load, high temperature applications where resistance to breakdown is superior to petroleum based oils. it seems to me you'd want to give these engines extra protection, not less, especially if high temps are an issue since synthetic can help lower them

misc. references...
http://tinyurl.com/yy8d2f
http://tinyurl.com/6olfpl2
http://www.synthetic-oil-tech.com/MC...aper-g2156.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/6vp5l8z
SynLube:
Quote:
Great Research so now I guess you understand it.

Point is that under CLEAN AIR ACT it is the vehicle manufacturer that has to demonstrate the "useful life" (like Harley did) and then warranty the emission system for the "useful life" - or be subject to $5,000 per vehicle fine in case of motorcycle.

There is also one time in a life exemption for "custom bikes"

There is nothing in the regulations that PROHIBITS any manufaturer to demonstrate LONGER useful life and certify their vehicle for LONGER, as I suggested I believe that would be great marketing opportunity that you can legally advertise (as per FTC.gov regulations), but bike sales are so miniscule that no MFG even considers it.



I did mention to you that I have small association with HONDA and even mentioned that to them way way back, and their response was that 50% of the HONDA 600 cars were in junk yards after 36,000 miles = THE REASON GIVEN: It is really a motorcycle engine put into as minicar - their data not mine, so indeed it proved the "short" life, but still that was DOUBLE of the certification minimum for CLASS 3 bikes, which being lighter than 1275 lbs in theory sould last even longer.

Same reason Ferrari is certified for 2 years ro 25,000 miles, as average wner drives it only 2,500 miles annually - there may be few who do more, but it is very rare. All modern Ferrari are glued together - yes really and dow that supplied the structural adhesive has life for it of 7 to 9 years - yet people that spend $$$$ for such car have some dilusion that it will last "forever" and will be collector item etc.
Not when it comes unglued 10 years later !!!

The bottom line is that manufacturers have sucessfully convinced NHTSA and CARB with engineering data, market syrveys and such from RL POLK and JD POWER that indeed 5 year and 18,000 miles (30,000km is the actual legal language just to confuse people) is adequate service/useful life for such vehicles.

And when you use and recomend oil in such application that can and has been demonstrated to damage modern (after 1996) automotive engine, you are more or less assuring that long life will not be the case, etc.

See (API SA) on oue web in publications section.

Syn-cerely
Miro Kefurt
www.synlube.com

See SynLube on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gse25lO1uB8

See SynLube latest website addition:
SynLube's Automotive BLACK LIST
http://www.synlube.com/BlackList.htm

See our latest Press Releases:
http://www.synlube.com/PR201001.htm
http://www.synlube.com/CRAndersonB-CA.htm
http://www.synlube.com/PR201107GMC.htm

SynLube PRICE LIST is on our web:
http://www.synlube.com/pricelist.htm
so... in the end...

i dropped the conversation at this point as he never really addressed any of the points i made in my last reply.

i DO give him credit in that he didn't act like a typical salesman and try and push the produce down my throat, but either his logic is flawed or i'm not understanding what he's trying to get across - seems to me that in a harsh operating environment like an MC, you'd want extra protection, not less, especially where high heat can be a problem, yet he kept insisting that synthetic is useless in this application.

viseGrip screwed with this post 03-19-2012 at 04:09 PM
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:22 PM   #2
Wolfgang55
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Can't believe I read the whole thang

I actually read it all.
I thought what he said about the MC motor which shares its motor oil w/ a wet clutch, transmission & shifting parts.
I'm thinking the brass dogs, if they are still made from brass, for "shifting parts".
When all these things are in the same oil bath there are 4 metals micro in size, now in the oil getting into the motor lube system.
Here is the weakness in the current MC motor.

Not disagreeing or taking any side here. But being very old, I may have misread as I usually say when I walk into the ladys room.
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:56 PM   #3
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:13 PM   #4
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I own three bikes with more than 50k miles, all 10 or more years old. I don't consider any of them anywhere near the end of there useful life. All three have used synthetic oil (Mobil 1) while I have owned them.

The SynLube guy seems to have an anti-motorcycle bias. (or maybe I just read that into hes responses)
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:46 PM   #5
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tl;dr

Well made it half way through. I'm not convinced he's completely knowledgable on mc oil and engines, but I agree with his main advice. On air cooled engines use cheap oil changed often.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:36 AM   #6
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Weird how anyone takes crap from snake oil sellers seriously! No matter what oil is being used in an IC engine, as well as metallic particles from internal parts wearing (some non magnetic), there will be water, acids, and inevitably particles of carbon.

In this case the snake oil guy seems to be suggesting that these contaminants dont exist, so its perfectly ok to use his product and forget about oil changing!

If this nonsense was correct, then I would think motor manufacturers would have worked it out some while ago, and new vehicles would all come from the factory with snake oil in the motors.
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:53 AM   #7
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While I agree that oil doesn't "wear out" the contaminants noted above do make oil unusable. There are certain industrial applications where oil has an indefinite lifespan. However none of them include an IC engine.

While I couldn't read all the above I would like to see certifiable references for the "certified useful life" classes he refers to.
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:25 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherguy View Post
While I agree that oil doesn't "wear out" the contaminants noted above do make oil unusable.
Wouldn't breakdown of oil molecules or polymer chains (or whatever, sorry, not an oil engineer) occurs due to forcing the oil through orfices, shearing action (especially in gearboxes), etc?

I don't have much to comment on about that email chain, clearly the guy doesn't have much understanding of... science?
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:50 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
Weird how anyone takes crap from snake oil sellers seriously! No matter what oil is being used in an IC engine, as well as metallic particles from internal parts wearing (some non magnetic), there will be water, acids, and inevitably particles of carbon.

In this case the snake oil guy seems to be suggesting that these contaminants dont exist, so its perfectly ok to use his product and forget about oil changing!

If this nonsense was correct, then I would think motor manufacturers would have worked it out some while ago, and new vehicles would all come from the factory with snake oil in the motors.
i wouldn't call him a snake-oil salesman at all - quite the opposite - he suggested i DON'T use their product and, instead, use cheap oil and change it often

Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherguy View Post
While I agree that oil doesn't "wear out" the contaminants noted above do make oil unusable. There are certain industrial applications where oil has an indefinite lifespan. However none of them include an IC engine.

While I couldn't read all the above I would like to see certifiable references for the "certified useful life" classes he refers to.
those references exist in the links he provided. i don't have an issue with their validity, but the problem i see is that the 5 yr./18K mi. "useful life" seems to be based on politics regarding emissions and not real-world engine service life. i think the first part of the EPA doc i linked to supports that assumption very well - emphasis is mine...
Quote:
3.2 Class III Useful Life

What We Proposed:

Useful life is the period over which a manufacturer must demonstrate the effectiveness of the emission control system. The current useful life for Class III motorcycles is 5 years or 30,000km, whichever occurs first. Based on usage data supplied by an industry trade organization, we estimated that the average operating life of highway motorcycles is well above our current useful life definition.
Miro from SynLube seems to completely ignore any evidence which suggests the real-world useful life is far different from the "useful life" in the documentation.

he did get back to me on where he obtained the oil temperature figure for MC engines...

Quote:
The 300 to 320 F on air cooled bike engines is from EPA certification data that monitors fuel flow, exhaust emissions, inlet air temperature and exhaust temperature, you would have to be a manufacturer registered with EPA (which we are for vehicles - OKA, MIROX, BREMACH) to have access to those data since it is considered Confidential Business Information (CBI).

The lowest temperatures I have seen on 50 cc bikes was 275F - water cooled are in the 180 to 235 range and all air cooled are well above that, just instal oil temperature gauge and you will se it for yourself unless it is below freezing - the sending units are available from VOD and replace the drain plug.

If you do not care about the rest of the unit that is clutch, the rubber primary dampers, and rest that makes the contraption function by all means use Synthetic that was designed to soften seals, reduce friction (thus cause wet clutch slip) etc. AND WAS ENGINEERED for AUTOMOTIVE ENGINES (low temperatures and NO contamination)

I am sure your owner manual if you have it RECOMENDS the use of obsolete API performance category and actually warns you about the use of more modern automobile Motor Oils. There is good reason for it, or do you not trust the manufacturer either because they are part of some sort of political conspiracy or in cahoots with Oil Companies ?
the rest of that email i am not quoting here because it is irreverent and is literally nothing more than personal attacks and how no "normal" person rides a motorcycle in the U.S. and his superior credentials, etc. - amazing what a college education can buy these days

in another email he provided the following info...

Quote:
Friction Index of oil with NO additives = API SA is 1.00 (basic SAE 30 oil plain petroleum = 1.0)

SynLube Lube-4-Life® is in 0.42 to 0.45 range

Wet clutch to not slip needs at least 1.50 under light load and up to 3.0 under high loads

Any modern Automotive Oil that is API SE or better has friction well below 0.9 API SN is typically 0.84 (that is why we claim that SynLube cuts friction to 50% of conventional Motor Oil (synthetic or Petroleum). And also the reason OEM recommend the obsolete API service categories.

So you need to add friction inducing additives (basically abrasives) to oil that lubes everything, so in a sense you assure that you wear the rest of the stuff out (gears, synchros, cylinder bore and rings) at rate that is at least 2 times greater than in Automobile engine. (at same RPM which for auto engine is seldom over 3,000 RPM). Up the speed a bit like to 5,000 RPM and the wear rate more than triples !

Friction additives also kill chains (timing or primary drive) as the wear in the pins elongates them and makes them longer thus looser, then they hit stuff that is close by, etc.....

"Special" Motor cycle racing oils designed for wet clutch application have friction indexes of well over 2, and extra friction combined with 10,000 RPM is 300 F on a cold day !!! = one reason racing engines are only expected to live 50 hours or less.

Rotational speed with friction additives increases the oil temperatures at rate that is up to 9 times greater than increase of temperature due to "load" only. (Extra weight or aero drag)

While many Motorcycle oil "producers" claim to have formulated miracles, they are simply not possible due to common laws of physics, you either have friction or you do not, if you do you generate heat, and heat and speed = wear = limited service life.

That is the reason for 5 years or 18,000 miles based on EPA tests, and the fact that bikes are not ridden as much, or else they would not be legal by now as they pollute the air at rate that is 25 times greater per mile driven than the FORD F150 = the most popular vehicle in USA.

Only leaf blowers pollute air more than bikes, while most PZEV rated vehicles will actually have exhaust that is CLEANER than the air the engine breathes on a "smoggy" day !!!

When bike engine burns oil and exceeds the emission certification values, which typically is after 5 years or 18,000 miles, it is WORN OUT = "useful life" is over !
at any rate, i hope this information may be helpful to others when deciding whether to run synthetic in our bikes. the unfortunate part is that the credibility of Miro is, in my mind anyway, questionable due to his blatantly obvious dislike of vehicles with less than 6 wheels; "4 on the ground, a spare and one in my hand"

motorcycle, car or otherwise, i know i won't be buying oil from anyone as unprofessional and elitist as Miro form SynLube
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:12 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherguy View Post
What do you call someone that speaks without knowledge of the subject? A salesman.
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:18 AM   #11
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wanted to add this to the mix, just as a reference - this is specific to the 07 DR650SE, but i would imagine it's the same for a very large number of bikes. the manual calls for an API classification of SE, SF or SG.

i robbed this from thumpertalk which defines the classifications...

Quote:
SA: Adopted in 1971, but known as API Regular prior to then. This performance category identified mineral oils which contained no performance additives and were intended for the service lubrication of certain low-performance gasoline powered automotive engines typical of the period 1900 to 1930 in North America. Because these oils did not contain any detergent additives, they were also commonly called "non-detergent".

SB: Adopted in 1971, but known as API Premium prior to then. This performance category identified engine oils typical of the period 1931 to 1963 in North America. These oils contained some minimum level of performance additives and offered mild anti-scuff capability, some limited resistance to oil oxidation and some copper/lead bearing corrosion protection. These oils were also referred to as "non-detergent".

SC: Adopted in 1971, but known as API MS prior to then. This performance category identified engine oils typical of the period 1964 to 1967 North America. These oils had to meet the performance requirements of a new "Multicylinder Sequence (MS) engine test. The MS tests were selected to evaluate protection against low temperature sludge, deposits, rust, corrosion and wear.

SD: Adopted in 1971, and also known as API MS prior to then. This performance category identified engine oils typical of the period 1968 to 1971 in North America. The engine tests for this classification included testing the cleanliness of the positive crankcase ventilation valves during short trips and stop-and-go driving.

SE: This performance category identified oils suitable for vehicles manufactured in the 1972-1979 period in North America. The MS tests were again upgraded to evaluate high temperature oil thickening.

SF: This performance category identified oils suitable for vehicles manufactured in the 1980-1988 period in North America. Once again the multicylinder tests were upgraded, adding evaluations particularly appropriate for smaller, higher revving, higher operating temperature engines.

SG: This performance category identified oils suitable for vehicles manufactured in the 1989-1992 period in North America. Oils meeting this service category provided improved engine cleanliness and wear protection for both stop-and-go driving and high speed highway service.
so Miro gets some credibility here - he stated that bike manufacturers are using 50 yr. old technology in their engine building techniques and, apparently because of this, manufacturers are recommending obsolete oil technology. this may not be what many of us would want to hear, but there it is.

wikipedia...

Quote:
The latest API service standard designation is SN for gasoline automobile and light-truck engines. The SN standard refers to a group of laboratory and engine tests, including the latest series for control of high-temperature deposits. Current API service categories include SN, SM, SL and SJ for gasoline engines. All previous service designations are obsolete, although motorcycle oils commonly still use the SF/SG standard.
also see "motorcycle oil" from wikipedia

viseGrip screwed with this post 03-20-2012 at 06:28 AM
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:46 AM   #12
Dave in Wi
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I have a hard time with some of the points he makes about motorcycle engine longevity, but I won't argue with his advice to use conventional oil & change it often. That's what I do. I know it's crazy but I use Honda conventional motorcycle specifiec oil (my transmission seems to shift best with it) and change it at 3,000 miles. I expect my engine will be running just fine long after I sell it.

I really don't understand the fascination with using synthetic oil and extended change intervals. I look at my oil after 3,000 miles and think "that's really dirty, glad I'm changing it". I can see if you do a ton of miles, you woudl want to extend the drain intervals. But with a wet clutch, I'd stay away from synthetics unless they are motorcycle spoecific.

Oh man I just got sucked into an oil thread...
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:49 AM   #13
gmiguy
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Sounds like a toolbox.

Somebody should ask him what the silver thing is at the top of this picture on the front page of his website, right below the text that says "Whatever you drive, or operate".



To my untrained eye, it appears to be some sort of motorized cycle.

Please post the remainder of the email where he rants about his credentials and how no normal person would ride a motorcycle. I suspect it will be a good read.
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Old 03-20-2012, 07:04 AM   #14
MrBob
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"Tribological"

I had to look that one up. What a cool word.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribology

You might want to try here if you like reading about oils,

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/
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Old 03-20-2012, 07:51 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by MrBob View Post
"Tribological"
You might want to try here if you like reading about oils,

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/
thanks - i actually read just a bit of that before. are you "bob"?
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