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Old 03-21-2012, 11:36 AM   #31
viseGrip OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpt4321 View Post
In the end, just look at his claims logically. If there really is a lifetime oil solution, give me one good reason why the SLEW of smart people at OEMs aren't using it.
check this out
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Old 03-21-2012, 04:45 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Black7 View Post
A possible second reason is dealer see routine maintenance as an add-on service. Oil changes are easy $ that even the minimum wage tech guys can do.
Quite a few manufacturers are offering zero-cost scheduled maintenance plans for a number of years as a sales incentive. If they could avoid changing oil for 3+ years (and save that cost), why wouldn't they?

If Mobil could offer an oil that had a longer life than their competitors, why wouldn't they?

Etc, etc.
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Old 03-21-2012, 04:49 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viseGrip View Post
If you're a "conspiracy theory" kind of guy, there's no point in furthering this discussion.

Yes, products have finite life. We have assured that by being cheap bastards. How is that significantly relevant to the oil topic? This fact wouldn't keep all the big names in the OEM and oil world from selling a longer lasting oil.
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:24 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpt4321 View Post

If Mobil could offer an oil that had a longer life than their competitors, why wouldn't they?

Etc, etc.
They did, A very long time ago Mobil1 was advertised as good for something like 25k miles. So I did just that with a Nissan pickup. Once a year or 25k which ever came first. At 120k it was like new.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:26 PM   #35
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They did, A very long time ago Mobil1 was advertised as good for something like 25k miles. So I did just that with a Nissan pickup. Once a year or 25k which ever came first. At 120k it was like new.
Did your Nissan motor not produce any combustion byproducts likely to contaminate the oil then I wonder?
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:45 AM   #36
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I got a different spin out of his argument. Sounds to me like he is using the motorcycle manufacturer's argument to Carb and the EPA, why they do not need FI, or catalytic converters on some of their bikes. It appears that they are the one saying, no need for more stringent emissions, as the average model of what ever bike, won't last more than 5 years.

Since neither are on the bike, I guess Carb, EPA and mr slick oil are buying it for the time being.
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:39 PM   #37
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SynLube--the perfect oil for my new perpetual motion machine
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:00 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
Did your Nissan motor not produce any combustion byproducts likely to contaminate the oil then I wonder?
Who says it didn't? What matters is that the motor was like new after 120k with around six total oil changes.
I changed the filter every 12k
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:48 PM   #39
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The problem with Miro's view is he bases his outlook on facts compiled by people who DO NOT RIDE MOTORCYCLES.
This is compounded by the fact the he himself does not ride and is ignorant of motorcycles, this is obvious by his views on them.

I've had about 12 bikes throughout my life ranging from fully race prepped street and dirt bikes to early '80's scooters masquerading as motorcycles. I've had multiple bikes go well over 50k miles, an R1, a Hayabusa and my little Honda CM200T. I use magnetic drain bolts in all my bikes and I change my oil differently depending on the bike and it's intended application, but no more than 3k miles.

Motorcycles are not a primary form of transportation for a lot of people, but they are for some (ME!!!!). There are plenty of low mileage bikes for decent prices, I snagged my '07 DRZ SM for $3800 from a dealer with 6k on the clock.


I think he didn't want you to buy his product because you actually asked questions. A lot of people just buy the hype, he's not after you or us as a market. He's after people that think with their wallets. I agree that he seems like a snake oil salesman and he didn't want to sell to you because you asked intelligent questions about his snake oil.
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:20 PM   #40
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Miro is an ass - plain and simple - even beyond a snake-oil salesman. it easy to understand why so many trash him and his oil. by the way, i found out some other interesting things...

he is the guy responsible for importing the Yugo into the U.S.

his Nevada business license was permanently revoked, though i don't know the circumstances

he apparently refused early on to provide an accurate business address to people that wanted to visit his facilities, then apparently gave false addresses, in one case claiming to be operating inside the NV nuclear test range and people couldn't visit because they needed a "secret clearance"

apparently he's been a real snake on some forums - first claiming to be the owner of SynLube in his forum profile and then, using the same users name mind you, denying to be the owner, removing that piece of info from his profile, and then promoting SynLube as a SynLube customer

having said all that, i am the kind of person that has an open mind and there apparently is no hard evidence that his oil doesn't live up to his claims, or that it does. of course one reason for this seems to be that he refuses to provide samples for testing. now my 'bullshit' meter is tilting strongly toward the red, and i'd never buy buy anything from him, but still, there's no evidence his claims are false

engineers often do not make good salesmen, much less business owners, but that doesn't mean his oil is junk, it may just mean he's not the one who should be selling it
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:34 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpt4321 View Post
Quite a few manufacturers are offering zero-cost scheduled maintenance plans for a number of years as a sales incentive. If they could avoid changing oil for 3+ years (and save that cost), why wouldn't they?

If Mobil could offer an oil that had a longer life than their competitors, why wouldn't they?

Etc, etc.
BMW has a 15k mile interval depending on how the car is driven. Mercedes is about the same.
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:56 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
BMW has a 15k mile interval depending on how the car is driven. Mercedes is about the same.
15k is a lot less than lifetime (or 100k+), as his website claims.

If BMW and Mercedes can't figure it out, why can this clown?

If he's this good, he should be able to build an Audi-beating Le Mans car by this year's race.

C'mon guys. Zero chance he's onto something that nobody else can figure out.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:42 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by viseGrip View Post
Miro is an ass - plain and simple - even beyond a snake-oil salesman. it easy to understand why so many trash him and his oil. by the way, i found out some other interesting things...

he is the guy responsible for importing the Yugo into the U.S.

his Nevada business license was permanently revoked, though i don't know the circumstances

he apparently refused early on to provide an accurate business address to people that wanted to visit his facilities, then apparently gave false addresses, in one case claiming to be operating inside the NV nuclear test range and people couldn't visit because they needed a "secret clearance"

apparently he's been a real snake on some forums - first claiming to be the owner of SynLube in his forum profile and then, using the same users name mind you, denying to be the owner, removing that piece of info from his profile, and then promoting SynLube as a SynLube customer

having said all that, i am the kind of person that has an open mind and there apparently is no hard evidence that his oil doesn't live up to his claims, or that it does. of course one reason for this seems to be that he refuses to provide samples for testing. now my 'bullshit' meter is tilting strongly toward the red, and i'd never buy buy anything from him, but still, there's no evidence his claims are false

engineers often do not make good salesmen, much less business owners, but that doesn't mean his oil is junk, it may just mean he's not the one who should be selling it

Wonder if he is also involved with making the new Nortons................lol
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Old 03-26-2012, 09:58 PM   #44
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SynLube - read the FACTS !!!

It is interesting that people who post about SynLube find it necessary to "edit" reproduced e-mails, and "delete" the important facts so here is "unedited" version of reply that was NOT published in it's entirety:

Miro Kefurt
www.synlube.com


FYI

Friction Index (FI) of oil with NO additives = API SA is 1.00 (basic SAE 30 oil plain petroleum = 1.0)
for "official" Japanese Motorcycle Oil tests, there are two specified oils for FI testing and they are supplied solely by Japan Lubricating Oil Society.

Prior the actual Motorcycle Oil evaluation on specific friction and steel plate combination the Friction indices are set to provide a value of 2.00 when JAFRE-A is evaluated
and 1.00 when JAFRE-B is evaluated.
JAFRE-A: Japanese Four-Stroke Cycle Reference Oil A
JAFRE-B: Japanese Four-Stroke Cycle Reference Oil B

SynLube Lube-4-Life® Motor Oil SAE 5W-50 has FI in 0.42 to 0.45 range

For Wet Clutch to not slip under torque FI of at least 1.50 under light load and up to 3.0 under high loads is required.

Any modern Automotive Oil that is API SE or better has Friction Index (FI) well below 0.9.
Currently the latest performance category: API SN, is typically 0.84; that is why we claim that SynLube cuts friction to 50% of conventional Motor Oil (Synthetic or Petroleum).

The low FI of modern automotive oils is also the reason low cost motorcycle OEMs recommend the now obsolete API service categories, whose FI was significantly higher.

"Motorcycle Oil" formulator needs to add friction inducing additives (basically abrasives) to oil that lubes everything, so in a sense it is assured that excessive wear is induced (gears, synchros, camshaft lobes, cylinder bores and rings) at rate that is at least 2 times greater than in modern Automobile engine. (at same RPM which for auto engine is seldom over 3,000 RPM). Up the speed to 5,000 RPM and the wear rate more than triples !

Friction additives also kill chains (timing or primary drive) as the wear in the pins elongates them and makes them longer thus looser, then the vibrating chains damage parts or components that are in close proximity......

"Special" Motorcycle racing oils designed for wet clutch application have friction indexes of well over 2, and extra friction combined with 10,000 RPM is equivalent to operating temperature in excess of 300 F (150C) on a cold day !!! = one reason racing engines are only expected to operate at most for only 50 hours. ( "useful life" of 12 to 24 racing hours is however more typical).

Rotational speed with friction additives increases the oil temperatures at rate that is up to 9 times greater than increase of temperature due to "load" only. (Extra weight or aerodynamic drag)

While many Motorcycle oil "producers" claim to have formulated miracles, they are simply not possible due to common laws of physics, you either have friction or you do not.

If friction is present (resistance to motion) then heat is generated !

Heat and Speed = Wear = Limited service life.

That is the reason for EPA "useful life" definition for Class III motorcycles of 5 years or 18,000 miles* based on EPA tests, and the fact that bikes are not ridden as much, or else they would not be legal by now as they pollute the air at rate that is up to 25 times greater per mile driven than the FORD F150 = the most popular vehicle in USA.

*(the actual EPA language is 30,000 kilometers at the insistence of the motorcycle manufacturers, probably because 30,000 "sounds" better than 18,000 and most Americans are not well versed in equivalence of kilometers to miles = "the GO METRIC" in USA mission has totally failed !)

Only leaf blowers pollute air more than bikes, while most PZEV rated cars will actually have exhaust that is CLEANER than the air the engine breathes on a "smoggy" day !!!

When bike engine burns oil and exceeds the emission certification values, which typically is after 5 years or 18,000 miles, it is WORN OUT = "useful life" is over !

Recently when EPA wanted to increase "useful life" definition for CLASS III motorcycles or provide for longer certification life option to 40,000 km (24,854 miles) from current 30,000 km (18,641miles) the greatest objections were provided by Harley-Davidson, claiming that most of their bike owners DO NOT even ride that much during the "useful life" and they provided data from J.D. Power & Associates, R.L. Polk and NHTSA own "research" data as proof that such increase in "useful life" is unreasonable, and actually officially admitted that such increased certification burden would cause them to "go out of business" !

The most recent data shows that average per annum motorcycle ridership is about 2,400 miles per registered motorcycle.

This is especially interesting since on many discussion bards people claim to have 50,000 miles or more on bikes between overhauls and some even claim excess of 100,000 trouble free miles !

Yet official registration and insurance claim data as well as the average mileages from reported motorcycle dismantlers, especially in California where the Dismantler has to report the mileage to DMV prove that most motorcycles are taken out of service before they reach 28,000 miles.

So the anecdotal claims by few, and that is very very few fanatical bike owners do not match the real life average data that are collected by both State and Federal agencies.

Indeed when calculated some of those bike riders would have to average over 120 miles per day in order to accumulate the mileages they claim.


Also note:

Friction Index is a comparative friction value, it is NOT a "coefficient of friction". In this case it is the comparison to plain petroleum SAE 30 oil at usually 40C or 100C, for industrial applications the comparison is normally made at 40C, while for applications where the operational temperatures are high or are generated the actual comparison is at 100C.

In connection to "motorcycle oil" there are three different friction indices.
The significance of the three indices are:
Dynamic Friction Index (DFI)– Measure of clutch feel and how progressively power
transfers under slipping conditions
Static Friction Index (SFI) – Measure of closed clutch pack torque handling capacity resistance
to clutch slip under high-torque “break-away” conditions
Stop Time Index (STI)– Measure of how quickly the clutch engages


What really matters is that actual operating temperature, load and speed, as neither Friction Index nor "coefficient of friction" is a "constant" over all operating conditions.

"Motorcycle oils" that are used in low cost designs where sole lubricant functions as:
1.) Motor Oil,
2.) Gear Oil,
3.) Primary Drive Oil
4.) Clutch Coolant (in Wet Clutch applications)

must be multi-functional, meeting the needs of all the above systems.

An additional concern is in those applications in which the clutch is immersed in the oil.

If the Wet Clutch and Primary Drive lubricant is separate from the Motor Oil, it is less problematic application. As special lubricant designed for just that application can be successfully utilized.

Sometimes the Wet Clutch oil is shared with the transmission.

As Clutch is by intent a frictional device and oils are by design used to minimize friction, concern arises over the impact the oil may have on the operation of the clutch.

How an oil performs in a wet-clutch application is, in part, a function of its additive system. An oil used in a Wet Clutch should be completely free of additives such as friction modifiers that can dramatically alter the dynamic and static frictional properties of the clutch and result in clutch plate slippage.

Wet-clutch compatibility is determined using JASO T 904-98 test methodology. This procedure determines the frictional characteristics of an oil and allows for comparison against a standard test oil.

That standard has two categories: JASO MA and MB.

For motorcycle applications with Wet Clutch, the best performance is generally obtained when oils meeting the JASO MA specifications are used.

The standards for "Motorcycle oil" were developed in 1999 and revised in 2004, prior those dates NO actual test has existed to evaluate Wet Clutch System performance.

Since most motorcycle designs are primarily concerned with production cost minimization and there is no customer push for durability, designs that have originated in the 1960's are still a common practice 50 years latter.

Since 1994 it has been however known that modern automotive Motor Oils of then current API performance classification API SG caused problems in low cost motorcycle designs. (No problems were ever observed in water cooled motorcycles with dry clutch)

It took another 10 years; that is till December 2004; when the 1998 performance proposals were both finalized and revised.

However even those performance standards have proven not to be adequate based on field performance.
Therefore in 2006 a new set of test standards was developed and MA category expanded to MA1 and MA2.

When the test oil fails ANY of the specific tests in either of the MA categories, then such oil is considered to be MB, that is oil that is NOT suitable for Wet Clutch performance.

Typically such MB rated "motorcycle oil" is actually of API SL performance level.

In real life application many motorcycle owners that ride more than what is "normal" have still experienced serious problems such as engine failures in motorcycle designs that use sole lubricant for all functions.

This lead to further enhancements of the standards and associated test procedures in May 2011, which became a standard as of September 2011 essentially for 2012 Model Year (MY) production motorcycles.

However it must be realized that these standards are essentially only of benefit to owners of Japanese made or Japanese designed motorcycles that lack the feature of separate lubricants for separate functions, that is the lubricating oil is NOT shared by Engine, Clutch, Primary Drive and Transmission.

For application in properly engineered motorcycles where such functions which have contrasting demands are separated, modern Motor Oils and Gear Oils engineered for automotive applications will provide satisfactory long term performance.

API SN would be the proper performance level to be used in modern motorcycle designs (Water Cooled, Fuel Injected with catalytic converter, and independent lube supplies for each function).

Because of the high certification costs (40,000 Yen) and relatively low volume demand for "Motorcycle Oil" the lubricants that are truly "certified and licensed" by JASO cost about $12 to $15 per US Quart and still due to the multiple use have to be changed as often as 2,500 miles.

That is usually the reason that motorcycle owners continually search for "Best Oil for Motorcycle", but the same individuals are absolutely NOT willing to pay the price for the proper oil that is already available and specifically engineered for their application.

If that is the case then the only recommendation can be to use LOW COST PETOLEUM motor oil of OBSOLETE API CATEGORY like API SE, and change it frequently - ideally every 500 miles or so that is if the motorcycle is truly of ancient design, i.e. as often as the drive chains need to be "adjusted".

Use of PERMANENT or even "long Life" lubricants in motorcycles that use common lube for all functions is DEFINITELY NOT RECOMMENDED ! All the wear particles from gears, clutch and synchronizers MUST and NEED to be removed as frequently as possible - ideally every 50 hours or less or at most 500 to 600 miles of use.

Friction reducing ultra efficient lubricants like SynLube Lube-4-Life® while perfect for modern OBD II automotive and diesel HD engines, would be actually harmful if used in low cost motorcycle.

Few daring individuals that despite of our advice DO NOT USE IT - did, and in all instances had to replace the clutch, in one case 3 times before the "graphite" that got accumulated inside of the engine case got flushed out !

If you want a long service life from a motorcycle, get one that has been designed for such performance, even if it is not certified to it, when the Engine uses its own lubricating Motor Oil, it will definitely last longer than any design that shares lube with transmission and or clutch.

There simply is not magical potion that will drastically increase the service life of low cost poorly designed motorcycle which is air cooled and where sole oil supply lubes everything.

Owners of such motorcycle of course do not want to know the truth and are on eternal quest for magical solutions.

Yet they do not accept the responsibility for their own actions that is buying such designs because they are not willing to pay for "better" more durable designs.

Fact is that every time one buys and inferior product be it of poor design or low quality or durability, one just makes financial vote for the mediocrity and votes against the theoretical "superiority" of any product in given category.

Add to that the fact that no motorcycle manufacturer in the world has a business model that supports the existing already sold motorcycles to keep them on the road "indefinitely", and that the only successful business model that has been proven over and over is to produce MORE and sell MORE than before in order to stay in business and to be profitable, then expecting to see major advances in motorcycle powertran design and engineering is highly unlikely.
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:19 AM   #45
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nothing was edited - i posted what was relevant to the discussion, thereby omitting what i didn't think was relevant

i won't ask you to produce evidence of editing because i know you can't
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