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Old 03-20-2012, 09:52 AM   #46
Xtremjeepn
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One factor that many motorcyclists overlook is their skills in the car! If you have lots of close calls in a car, maybe you should not be on a bike!

Many skills can also be practiced in a car and then translated and practiced on a bike. A driver the is very profficient at "threshold braking" in a car will have a much better time translating that skill to a motorcyle.

"Aim high" vision is another great example. Find yourself looking at the end of the hood instead of the horizon? Maybe you shouldn't ride! Or at least start to practice "looking where you want to go" instead of where you are going, looking through the turn, it can all be done and mastered in a car and then mastered on the bike!

I no way am I saying that just because you are good in a car means you will be good on a bike. But if you are bad in a car you will be bad on a bike!!
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Old 03-20-2012, 09:55 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Xtremjeepn View Post
Thank you
I have considered buying a "stunt bike" just to share with friends to train and practice limits with without fear of scratching up a bike.
My "stunt bike" and testing the limits of traction this past weekend.

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Old 03-20-2012, 10:05 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by mikem9 View Post
My "stunt bike" and testing the limits of traction this past weekend.

Well you either ran out of traction or talent Cool picture!

My only reasoning for the street oriented bike is to prove it can be done. I often hear the "well, a dirt bike is different, you can't do that on my -insert bike here-"

After a year of hearing " dude, how the hell do you make those insanely tight turns on your R1?" I had three friends go take the "Top Gun" civilian version of the Police Motorcycle course. All of them greatly improved their overall riding skills and are now very skilled at low speed steering and brake control. Which ultimately freed up their minds so that they can pay more attention to the world around them while riding. Training can be everything!
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:21 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Xtremjeepn View Post
"Aim high" vision is another great example.
This was the first thing I was taught about motorcycle riding. A friend handed me the keys to his new (to him) CBR600, and said "I want you to know what every moving object is doing for at least a block ahead, as well as any cars near you in the other directions." His was the first sportbike I ever rode, and it really got my attention when I was accidentally doing 90 by the top of the on-ramp in third gear (he told me not to lug the engine). Obviously, you can't stare into the mirrors too long, but situational awareness is key.
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:48 AM   #50
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A big issue is that people in general don't trust in their brain or their total vision. They feel that they must be looking directly at an object to miss it.

I'm sure most of you have run into a "pot hole", all while thinking to yourself "don't hit the pot hole!

It's because if you look at something your brain starts to take you there. Look at the problem, you steer towards it, look toward the solution, you steer towards it. But that is only half the story.

The other half is looking FAR FAR ahead! It gives your brain time to process what it sees and come up with the appropriate course of action. If you see that pothole a quarter mile before you get to it, your brain has all the time in the world to figure out how not to hit it. By the time you get there you don't need to look at it to avoid it, your brain keeps track of it in your periphery and simply steers you around it, while you are busy looking further and further down road.

Look as far ahead as you can see! No need to stare at the car directly in front of you, your periphery vision will pick up the taillight if they start to brake, but more importantly, you will see anything happening in front of them that would cause them to brake! So you know before they do!!

Here is a quick exercise for you to try!

-Stand up and look at the horizon as far away as you can!
-Hold your arms straight out in front of you thumbs pointing to the sky! (hands touching)
-Without moving your head or your eyes! Move your hands apart as far as you can until you can just barely see your hands(feel free to wiggle your thumbs, it helps)

I'd bet for most of you your arms are now almost fully extended to your sides. Which means that without moving your head or eyes you can see everything in that 4-6 foot wide window!!

You can repeat this going up and down. What you end up with is a field of view where you can see nearly everything around you without having to look directly at it.

Try this just standing behind a car at an appropriate following distance(for a motorcyle ) look over the car clear to the horizon! Have a friend step on the brakes and you will notice that without looking at the brake lights, you can still see them!!


You will see things like cars avoiding an obstacle a mile down the road and know to change lanes now, and know to give room to the drivers around you that have not seen it yet and will make a pain move when they do!

You will wonder how anything eve surprises anyone on the road every! Obviously there are environmental reasons that shorten your sight distance(rain, fog, traffic, etc) but look as far ahead as you can!

You should start to see things like the "dog/deer on the side of the road", the frantic driver rushing to get over, etc.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:40 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post


A deer strike is my only real fear while riding. Cages are only there for my amusement.
I once thought the same thing until I moved into the City. I'll take Deer any day as they're more predictable and where I'm most likely to encounter them, there is usually an escape route. (and evidence along the woods/fields where they usually cross)
In the city there are fucktards everywhere and every single one of them is out to getcha!
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:03 PM   #52
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Well you either ran out of traction or talent Cool picture!

My only reasoning for the street oriented bike is to prove it can be done. I often hear the "well, a dirt bike is different, you can't do that on my -insert bike here-"
Was riding on an FS road, setting up for a sweeper and just starting to lean. I think I hit an exposed wet slick and barkless log that was buried in the ground . I found it after the crash. Didn't see it while riding - kind of blended into the road surface. The street equivalent of a coolant spill. Slammed so fast, I didn't have time to react. This may be one of those 2% er that Dakez was speaking about earlier. But, may have been avoidable with less speed, but not sure.

I can see your point on using a beater streetbike as a practice bike. I practice emergency braking, small rear end slides etc on my streetbike, but not to the extremes I would if I didn't mind it hitting the ground.
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:15 PM   #53
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"But, may have been avoidable with less speed,"

Vigilance and discretion, the razor thin margin between a close call and disaster.

Some people think that going fast is the ultimate measure of your riding skills, but really now... does tumbling along on the ground demonstrate as much skill as riding marginally slower and not experiencing that ballistic dismount from the motorcycle?

Just saying...
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:17 PM   #54
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Well...."Slick happens"

Obviously there is some trick to reading the trail, especially one covered in loose dirt, leaves and water. Add in the changing light an it can reach up and bite you!

Which, you bring up a good point about riding in general. There is a bit of an art form to reading pavement that many riders never take the time to do. Hot, cold, slightly wet, chemicals on the road, asphalt vs concrete, cattle guards, man hole covers, etc etc etc. Any combination could cause a rider to lose control and make contact with a car. Especially if you ad in the major risk factors we talked about earlier. (alcohol, training, speed, etc)
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:23 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by lemieuxmc View Post
"But, may have been avoidable with less speed,"

Some people think that going fast is the ultimate measure of your riding skills, but really now... does tumbling along on the ground demonstrate as much skill as riding marginally slower and not experiencing that ballistic dismount from the motorcycle?

Just saying...
Bingo! This has bothered me for decades. Seems everytime you get next to another guy on a bike it's somehow a race, or contest to show who can go faster. Then the macho argument starts...."I was just riding a casual pace!....what? You can't hang with that?" BS! You are not more skilled because you ride 20mph+ faster than traffic
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:36 PM   #56
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I've been on lots of trail rides where I pull up last and the other guys ask why I'm last, or if the trail was "too technical" for me on the DR 650.

They are usually drenched in sweat, breathing hard, and discussing all of their near crashes. I just smile and tell them that it would have been pretty hairy if I had been riding over my sight distance or trying to pass someone, but I'm just out for a good time and it's pretty rare that I see a trail that my father wouldn't have ridden on his 1967 CT 90.

Bikes and riders change, but the trails are the same stuff that cowboys covered with one horsepower.
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:47 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by lemieuxmc View Post
"But, may have been avoidable with less speed,"

Vigilance and discretion, the razor thin margin between a close call and disaster.

Some people think that going fast is the ultimate measure of your riding skills, but really now... does tumbling along on the ground demonstrate as much skill as riding marginally slower and not experiencing that ballistic dismount from the motorcycle?

Just saying...
100% Agreed. This little dirt mishap has been a good reminder to check my typical speeds on both dirt roads and street rides. I don't have to ride overly fast to have fun! I just like surfing the contours of the land.
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:30 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by lemieuxmc View Post
I've been on lots of trail rides where I pull up last and the other guys ask why I'm last, or if the trail was "too technical" for me on the DR 650.

They are usually drenched in sweat, breathing hard, and discussing all of their near crashes. I just smile and tell them that it would have been pretty hairy if I had been riding over my sight distance or trying to pass someone, but I'm just out for a good time and it's pretty rare that I see a trail that my father wouldn't have ridden on his 1967 CT 90.

Bikes and riders change, but the trails are the same stuff that cowboys covered with one horsepower.
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps they rode that way because they enjoyed riding that way. Some people enjoy going fast. And those cowboys with only one horsepower, they used to race and try to go faster than each other. It's just human nature, something you don't seem to understand very well. Just because you enjoy putting along (and there's nothing wrong with that) doesn't make everyone who doesn't a dumbass.

I find it interesting that so many people decide that the maximum safe or "smart" speed is whatever speed they happen to ride at and anyone who goes faster is an idiot. Or maybe it's just an ego thing. You don't go fast so it bothers you when others go faster. I like to ride fast but I'm not even close to the fastest guy out there. It doesn't bother me when someone passes me and I have respect for anyone who has the skills to ride fast on a bike, providing he/she does it in a reasonably safe manner (or on a track)
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:31 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Xtremjeepn View Post
One factor that many motorcyclists overlook is their skills in the car! If you have lots of close calls in a car, maybe you should not be on a bike!
Or maybe they SHOULD be on a bike, hopefully Naturally Selecting themselves before they reproduce.
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Old 03-20-2012, 09:27 PM   #60
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Interesting thread; speaking of single bike accidents a couple pages back...

I have always wondered what percentage of single bike accidents were the results of a choice by the rider. Not a dumbass "how fast can I go on this freeway" choice, but something forced on you by a cager.

You're riding in a relatively spirited manner on a relatively deserted mountain road around a corner (it happens ), and some ignorant dirt bag is going wayyy to fast, oncoming in your lane. No time to stop: it's either going to be a head-on, or you go off the road left/right into the ditch/into a tree/into the guardrail or over the cliff.

In almost 45 years of riding, I have ...almost... had that experience twice. Both times there was a sufficient distance and shoulder space, and I was able to GTF out of the way. Once I maintained control, the other I low sided at about 15 mph. Both times the cagers kept going.

There was a well known Motorsycle Safety guy killed somewhere in the east while riding to a seminar several years ago. Just ran off the road and hit a tree. I've seen the same thing when we lived in San Diego on the 163, a scenic and fast 2 lanes-each-way hilly road leading into/out of downtown. No witnesses, the rider just ran off the road and head-oned a tree.

I have also ridden many places where there is a 2 foot shoulder, and cliffs on both sides. Pretty sure everybody has been on these roads. That situation, in that location, would have had me make that split second decision. So, faced with the certainty of checking out with a head-on, or the same odds (perhaps a couple seconds later) by doing a "Thelma and Louise", or a faceplant into a tree, which choice would it be?

I would think that most folks would try and avoid the collision; which could/would mean a lot of single bike fatalities... With no witnesses, and no skid marks. Maybe not a coicidence that there are a lot of single bike accidents. I have never read about or heard this discussed.

In the "no shoulder and cliffs on both sides" scenario, I'd... almost be tempted to choose the head-on. At least the wife will know what happened, as they would find the carnage still on the road... and hopefully the FSOB won't be able to drive off after killing me...

Note that this is not limited to windy mountain roads. It could also be the car that pulls out to pass in oncoming traffic at a distance of 100 feet away; and you have a closing velocity of 240 ft/sec...

Wow. Can't believe I wrote so much. Been thinking about this awhile, just never wrote it down before...
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