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Old 03-27-2012, 08:29 PM   #16
Billy Pilgrim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnrobertson View Post
So to both Billy Pilgrim and MJS, do you think it was the Goretex leaking, or the water being forced through the zips? (crotch and jacket)
Not easy to say. I did notice that the chest pocket zip was 3 or 4 mm from being totally done up but the flap should take care of that. I ride a 12GS with a screen so the wind blast at chest level is minimal.

I'm thinking it was probably the zips. Next test, I'll put some vaseline on the zips.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:19 PM   #17
Narsisco Lopez
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1. + 2 on proper cleaning regimen/care for Gore-Tex products. I have the new Latitude jacket and pants and would like to know more specifics about long-term care and cleaning.

2. Also... I've been shopping for a quality pair of Gore-Tex gloves. I ordered a pair of short Klim Elements... and, unfortunately, returned them after finding them way too bulky; simply not tactile enough for my tastes (I also tried and returned a pair of Rev'it Phantom GTX... same reasons).

So, my question is: Is there a suitable Gore-Tex solution to make a pair of short, summer weight waterproof gloves that are relatively light and tactile? Since I have heated grips and don't ride in snow, a waterproof summer weight glove would be an amazing addition to the Klim adventure gear line-up.
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Old 03-28-2012, 04:12 PM   #18
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Just a quick note: We had a great sit-down today with Doug here in the building. We're coming up with some solid answers for the questions here (and more). We'll get them posted soon. Thanks again for pinging us.
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Old 03-29-2012, 04:33 AM   #19
genka
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Gore-Tex:
The lifetime waterproofing guarantee is great, but how long the fabric can be expected to remain breathable, especially if used in dusty conditions? Is it possible to completely restore the breathability with cleaning?
Klim:
I tried Latitiude jacket, and it was the biggest jacket I've ever worn in L or XL sizes. I'm 5'11", a bit over 200lbs and the Large sized jacket was huge in all dimensions- sleeves to long, lot's of belly room, even the collar was seriously loose on my 17.5" neck. Is there a reason for such sizing? The size 34 Latitude pants were spot on.
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Old 03-29-2012, 07:05 AM   #20
shoein
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I'm looking at the klim gore-tek socks. I ride in wet conditions and have tried waterproof boots with little success. Once the boots get wet inside it it's a pain to get them dry again. The price of the socks would be worth it if they last a few seasons, keep my feet dry and I can ride in non waterproof boots. What is the process for the waterproofing guarantee if they start leaking?
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Old 03-29-2012, 07:16 AM   #21
55wolsink
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I am a big fan of Gore Windstopper!
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:17 AM   #22
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Answers!

Thanks again for the great questions. We had an awesome conversation with the GORE-TEX(r) team revolving around your inquiries and have a pile of answers for you. I will be going down the thread replying to each post where relevant. So, hang tight as we go through them today.

First, though, I think it's important for a little technical background on GORE-TEX(r) and how it actually works. I won't get too heavy on this but just a quick anatomy lesson will help tremendously as you wrap your head around seemingly simple questions like, "how do I wash it?"

GORE-TEX(r) is a membrane. It is a very thin layer of expanded polytetrafluoroethylene (ePTFE) that is engineered as a waterproof/breathable membrane for specific uses--from backpacking to ADVing your brains off there are many different products in the GORE catalog that are designed for their end-use specifically.

W.L. Gore and Associates have pioneered the development of this base material (PTFE) in thousands of industrial applications from medical implants to guitar strings.

GORE-TEX(r) is not a topical coating or a treatment. It is not water repellancy. It is a physical waterproof/breathable barrier and, in KLIM construction, it's laminated directly to a face fabric in a garment to provide an complete GUARANTEED TO KEEP YOU DRY(R) piece of gear. That promise is straight from GORE-TEX(r) and KLIM's incredible partnership.

DWR: DWR is short for Durable Water Repellent. It's a treatment to face fabrics that allows water to bead up and run off. It's an integral component to a comfortable clothing system in that it eliminates conductive heat loss and extends the time before a fabric "wets out" or becomes saturated. Wetting out can decrease comfort but does not affect waterproofness in a KLIM GORE-TEX(r) garment. DWR is refreshed or recharged by heat. That's why drying KLIM GORE-TEX(r) gear on medium heat is so important (more on overall cleaning in specific answers to that topic). DWR can wear off completely and reapplying a DWR treatment is a smart way to maximize overall comfort. KLIM and GORE-TEX(r) have recommended products and methods for this.

Layers: GORE-TEX(r) products are made in two or three layer composites. Two-layer GORE-TEX(r) is simply the GORE-TEX(r) membrane laminated to the face fabric. There is generally a sewn-in hanging liner inside the garment in this construction to protect the inside of the laminate from abrasion. Three-Layer GORE-TEX(r) has a lining material laminated to it on the inside as well. Three-layer is almost always more durable and has increased levels of breathability thanks to the properties of the inner-laminated fabric.

OK, back to the answers. Look for replies to direct posts.

-JZ
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:43 AM   #23
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Lucky, Thanks for the questions. Straight-up answers from GORE.

I don't think anybody has kept track of what generation we are on right now...there have been alot, but I don't know a number...sorry.

GORE-TEX® Pro garments are engineered for riders who are out for an extended period of time (weeks potentially) and in extreme conditions (heat, cold, rain, snow, etc.) The laminates used in these garments are a composite of three materials:
high abrasion, high tear resistance face fabrics
multi-part membrane only used for motorsports
higher mass more durable backer tricot
The GORE-TEX® Pro laminate package is much more robust than GORE-TEX® laminates - this means waterproof durability is increased. Because of the unique membrane, breathability is also increased.

GORE-TEX® Pro is only available in 3-layer, 2-layer doesn't provide the level of waterproof durability needed. 2-layer laminates are composed of the face fabric + membrane, there is no backer tricot. The tricot adds a lot of durability.

Dirt, oil, sweat, etc do not coat the pores in the GORE-TEX® membrane - it remains waterproof and breathable even when heavily soiled.

Cleaning the garment will increase its performance and your comfort. See our cleaning answers in the thread here for recommended methods and products to replenish the DWR.

You should not be experiencing failures in GORE-TEX(r) products. They are guaranteed. If you ever do, contacting customer service teams at either the apparel manufacturer or at Gore should be your first step to finding out what is happening. KLIM's customer service can be reached at 208-552-7433 or via live chat from www.KLIM.com. Gore has customer services at 1-800-GORETEX

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Explorer View Post
I Have a Badlands with Pro GoreTex, which I assume is a generation 3 or more? What is the differences from past Gore and how is it better?
I heard it is more waterproof (like really guaranteed) and it also breathes better than previous.
My suit allows a ton of airflow (just got last Nov) but have not been in rain...this winter it either snows in NoAz or its sunny and I ride.

I have always felt that dirt and oil will coat the Gore pores and cause failure and that cleaning is constantly necessary?
When washing should a complete Nikwax treatment be used or similer, ie washing, soaking and spraying then drying in a dryer (and how hot?) or air dry?

In previous Gore Tex products of top competetors I have experienced failure, always. I am hoping for the opposite with Klim's products.
Compare PRO to that used in the Latitude and expected results.

Allen
PS love your designs and quality- all top drawer products. Thank You.
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:17 PM   #24
KLIM OP
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Cleaning general reply

Here are answers to just about every cleaning question we received. And these are great questions. Just as tires, oil, chains and sprockets need maintenance, so does the piece of equipment you wear. Here you go:

The simple answer to when you should wash your KLIM GORE-TEX(r) gear is to do a wash/dry cycle whenever the DWR (durable water-repellent) is no longer effective and/or it just looks/smells bad. Dirt and dust will have little affect on breathability or waterproofness by themselves, but as soon as the DWR is exhausted, then all-weather performance will be compromised.

Digging a little deeper, we can explain why washing and drying are essential to maintain the DWR.

DWR makes water bead up on the surface of the face fabric. Check out the overview post above. Once the DWR is gone, the face fabric wets out faster in rainy weather. (this isn't affecting waterproofness, just the beading of water on the face fabric). If it's not going to get you wet, why worry about it? It's pretty simple, actually.

Water conducts heat 23X faster than air. While a 70-degree day feels nice, a 70-degree dip in water isn't as nice. Imagine a 70-degree hot tub. In similar fashion, if the outside of your garment is wet, you are more likely to feel cold. Once the fabric is wet, heat is conducted away from your skin faster than when it beads up water. So, even though you're dry, your skin will feel uncomfortable.

Also, you may experience condensation. When you pull a cold beer can out of the fridge on a hot day, you get beads of water on the outside of the can. This is not because the can is leaking beer. It's because the moisture in the warm air is condensing on the cold surface of the beer can. Same thing happens in a garment - if the face fabric is wetted out you can get condensation on the inside. The garment isn't leaking and it hasn't stopped breathing...but you are not as comfortable as you can be.

I suppose a GORE-TEX® garment could be washed too much, but what we usually see are ones that have never been washed, or not washed enough.

Here are recommended care instructions:

Wash w/out soap (see Notes below) unless heavily soiled and in need of detergent.
If washing with soap, do a second wash cycle without soap and ensure a complete rinse.
Dry on medium heat.

After washing, spray the garment with water. If it beads up, you are good to go. If the face fabric wets out, then you'll want to re-apply an aftermarket DWR to get maximum performance.

Notes

Regarding soap - powdered or liquid, either is fine. Water by itself is a good soil remover, which is why we recommend using this on it's own if only lightly soiled. Modern soaps have very powerful surfactants (wetting agents). This is the opposite of DWR. It's important to rinse these out, hence the recommendation for a second wash w/out soap if you need to use a detergent to get the grime out.

Regarding DWR Treatment: KLIM and GORE-TEX(r) recommend spray-on DWR treatments (KLIM sells Revivex). If you use a wash-in treatment, you'll be applying DWR to every surface of the garment, inside and out. this can negatively affect breathability of a garment. Spray on DWR is highly effective and is heat-activated just like the factory DWR. You pull your garment out of the washer, spray the DWR on the face fabric and then dry like normal on Medium heat.
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:18 PM   #25
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The KLIM/GORE-TEX® socks can be a great solution to wet feet in a pair of non-waterproof boots. Same warranty process as for any other Klim/GORE-TEX® product. Call Klim or Gore customer service if you ever have a question.

GORE-TEX® socks can be washed often (just like jackets and pants).

Also, trim your toenails! They really can cut through the sock quickly if not kept under control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoein View Post
I'm looking at the klim gore-tek socks. I ride in wet conditions and have tried waterproof boots with little success. Once the boots get wet inside it it's a pain to get them dry again. The price of the socks would be worth it if they last a few seasons, keep my feet dry and I can ride in non waterproof boots. What is the process for the waterproofing guarantee if they start leaking?
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:30 PM   #26
KLIM OP
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GORE-TEX(r) and KLIM are working hard to develop the next generation of truly waterproof and durably waterproof gloves that offer maximum tactility. It's not a small task. Right now, a summer-weight, waterproof glove doesn't exist. The Inversion Glove (WINDSTOPPER) is good for most of our snowmobilers down to well below zero with heated grips (some carry multiple pairs). But, in summer temps, even when wet, you'll likely overheat in something like that. It's nearly impossible to have a ventilated/waterproof glove--which is sort of what you need.

The big challenge is not wearing through the inside of the waterproof/breathable membrane. It's all about durability. If we can't make it last, we don't like to make it. And our standards of waterproof are different than others. If you want it water resistant, then that's doable. If you want it waterproof, well, we're working on it :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narsisco Lopez View Post
1. + 2 on proper cleaning regimen/care for Gore-Tex products. I have the new Latitude jacket and pants and would like to know more specifics about long-term care and cleaning.

2. Also... I've been shopping for a quality pair of Gore-Tex gloves. I ordered a pair of short Klim Elements... and, unfortunately, returned them after finding them way too bulky; simply not tactile enough for my tastes (I also tried and returned a pair of Rev'it Phantom GTX... same reasons).

So, my question is: Is there a suitable Gore-Tex solution to make a pair of short, summer weight waterproof gloves that are relatively light and tactile? Since I have heated grips and don't ride in snow, a waterproof summer weight glove would be an amazing addition to the Klim adventure gear line-up.
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:31 PM   #27
KLIM OP
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Passed your comment/avatar to the product development team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macadamia View Post
Make some big boy sizes... You market some great stuff but it's all too small... I need at least 4XL stuff...
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:32 PM   #28
KLIM OP
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Our women's lineup is growing every year. I can't tell you what's coming down the line but we have some focus in that area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 35xj View Post
my wife wants small gore-tex womens specific gear! when's it coming?
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:36 PM   #29
KLIM OP
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Yes, I'm answering this with more questions.

1. Where would a full strip of hook/loop benefit versus having the pieces the Traverse currently uses?

2. Adjustable in what way? Up/down/bigger/smaller/front/back/for neck brace/etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnrobertson View Post

Some other questions:

1. Why didn't you use a full strip of velcro on the Traverse suit on the front storm flap?

2. Why not make the neck on the Traverse adjustable.
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:39 PM   #30
KLIM OP
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Waterproof standards are simple around here: It's GUARANTEED TO KEEP YOU DRY. If that's not what you're experiencing, please contact KLIM's customer service at 208-552-7433 or via live chat during regular business hours at www.KLIM.com. We have a great staff here to help you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MJS View Post
How waterproof is "waterproof"?

I got caught in heavy rain (and snow) in Baja last week and after several hours of riding the crotch was wet. This was with a new pair of Traverse pants. Normal?
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