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Old 08-21-2013, 03:10 AM   #781
outsidein
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I bicycle as well as ride a motorcycle. Always wear a helmet on the bicycle too, in fact it is mandatory by law here. In reality the risks and types of crashes are very different when it comes to bicycles and motorcycles. The only crashes on a bicycle where serious injury can occur are when you get struck by a car and sustain impact injuries. Abrasion injuries can occur too but speeds are always slow enough these are always minor. On a motorcycle injuries can occur from other things as well such as flying through the air and landing on a hard surface, tumbling at speed, a long slide on pavement, sliding into an object at speed, having a heavy motorcycle land on you and others.
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:14 AM   #782
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Originally Posted by Vertical C View Post
So if going slow is so dangerous why dont bicyclists wear atgatt?
I just explained this to you (post #776).

And I´d add a couple more things to the bicycle/motorcycle argument: reachable speeds, and average speeds, are not the only differences between them. Your motorcycle itself can also hurt you in a crash much worse than a bicycle can. You can be thrown on a ´highside´ from your motorcycle, and you or parts of your body may be trapped under your motorcycle, causing very bad damage.

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Old 08-21-2013, 03:32 AM   #783
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
I just explained this to you (post #776).

And I´d add a couple more things to the bicycle/motorcycle argument: reachable speeds, and average speeds, are not the only differences between them. Your motorcycle itself can also hurt you in a crash much worse than a bicycle can. You can be thrown on a ´highside´ from your motorcycle, and you or parts of your body may be trapped under your motorcycle, causing very bad damage.
You said heat, which motorcycles are hotter in summer than any bicycle, and speed, which is silly as you can control your speed on a motorcycle and can ride just as slow as a bicycle. You choose your soeed (or you should).

As for highsides, if you are riding as slow as a bicycle then you wont highside the thing and get trapped under it. If I was riding in a way that highsides were possible, I would wear gear, otherwise I wont.

It really does sound like it is your riding that is meaning that you need gear all the time. That is your choice but not everyone is like you.
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:14 AM   #784
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Bicycles keep coming into this conversation for some reason, it is not an equivalent comparison.

- On a motorcycle I am moving consistently faster than I am on a bicycle in the same conditions (with the exception of heavy congestion, but even then on a bicycle I am moving less and 20mph)

- I have never been hotter on a motorcycle than on a bicycle in the same riding conditions. On road, off road, trails, does not matter. There is a huge difference of effort between riding a bicycle and a motorcycle.

- Wearing full motorcycle safety gear on a bicycle would be creating additional risk, I would probably die from heat stroke on the first serious hill climb.

- I have only seriously considered a deer strike on a bicycle once: travelling down a hill at about 30mph I had a deer running along the shoulder beside me, I was really hoping that he was not going to turn and run into me. 99% of the time on a bicycle you will have more than enough time to stop, you have considerably less mass to stop so you can haul down from average riding speed in a matter of feet if you have to.

- Show me one bicycle accident where the riders foot or leg was crushed by their bicycle, or their leg was caught under it while sliding grinding flesh down to bone.


All of the arm waving and finger pointing comes down to one thing, everybody makes a risk assessment when they climb onto their bike and the take actions to mitigate risk in accordance with what is an acceptable outcome in the event they are involved in an accident. All gear is going to do for anybody is hopefully reduce the seriousness of injury.

We all make our choices and have to live with the consequences of those choices.
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:15 AM   #785
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, and speed, which is silly as you can control your speed on a motorcycle and can ride just as slow as a bicycle. You choose your soeed (or you should).

As for highsides, if you are riding as slow as a bicycle then you wont highside the thing and get trapped under it. If I was riding in a way that highsides were possible, I would wear gear, otherwise I wont.

It really does sound like it is your riding that is meaning that you need gear all the time. That is your choice but not everyone is like you.
"You said heat, which motorcycles are hotter in summer than any bicycle"

Well, surely the machines themselves are. The big difference, however, is heat generation in your body, and how to manage that, without getting close to exhaustion, or even heat stroke.



"As for highsides, if you are riding as slow as a bicycle then you wont highside the thing and get trapped under it"


It is possible to highside a motorcycle at almost standstill, especially a more powerful one. Non-sensitive right hand, cold tyres, and a little bit slippery surface is all that´s needed. Tipping the the motorcycle over while standing still, and trapping your foot under it in the process is actually quite common.


"It really does sound like it is your riding that is meaning that you need gear all the time."

It might sound like this to you, but fact is, that by now I have managed over 20 years of riding alive and healthy, and the only times, when I´ve really needed the protective qualities of my gear on the street, have involved winter riding (snow and ice).
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:36 AM   #786
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Originally Posted by Navy Chief View Post

- Show me one bicycle accident where the riders foot or leg was crushed by their bicycle, or their leg was caught under it while sliding grinding flesh down to bone.

.

Show me one crash where that has happened at bicycle speed? Anyway that doesnt even happen on the scooter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
"You said heat, which motorcycles are hotter in summer than any bicycle"

Well, surely the machines themselves are. The big difference, however, is heat generation in your body, and how to manage that, without getting close to exhaustion, or even heat stroke.



"As for highsides, if you are riding as slow as a bicycle then you wont highside the thing and get trapped under it"


It is possible to highside a motorcycle at almost standstill, especially a more powerful one. Non-sensitive right hand, cold tyres, and a little bit slippery surface is all that´s needed. Tipping the the motorcycle over while standing still, and trapping your foot under it in the process is actually quite common.


"It really does sound like it is your riding that is meaning that you need gear all the time."

It might sound like this to you, but fact is, that by now I have managed over 20 years of riding alive and healthy, and the only times, when I´ve really needed the protective qualities of my gear on the street, have involved winter riding (snow and ice).

I have certainly got heat stroke on a motorcycle. More than once. You live in a cold climate, it is different. Heat stroke on a bike is a legitmate concern here.

Seriously I challenge you to try to highside my scooter from standstill. Its impossible. Its got like 6hp.

I have 19 years riding this year as well (over 300000km). I dont wear atgatt and never been in an ambulance. That is the way I choose to ride, not what I wear.
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:39 AM   #787
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Originally Posted by BC Brian View Post
I will wear jeans, but not shorts.

My line, or one of them, sort of, for today anyhow.......
But do you really define "jeans" as gear?

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Old 08-21-2013, 04:50 AM   #788
Navy Chief
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Originally Posted by Vertical C View Post
Show me one crash where that has happened at bicycle speed? Anyway that doesnt even happen on the scooter.

http://wvrecord.com/news/260879-coup...cle-broken-leg

That did not take long at all, from a stop fall over on Harley and end up with broken leg....
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:52 AM   #789
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Originally Posted by Navy Chief View Post
http://wvrecord.com/news/260879-coup...cle-broken-leg

That did not take long at all, from a stop fall over on Harley and end up with broken leg....
What gear would prevent that injury? Boots and full leathers wouldnt

And I have had that crash in jeans and joggers. My leg didnt break.

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Old 08-21-2013, 04:59 AM   #790
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What gear would prevent that injury? Boots and full leathers wouldnt
I did not say it would, you asked for a case where specific injuries occurred at bicycle speed.

But really it depends on where the leg was broken, it is possible that boots could have prevented it.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:07 AM   #791
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Originally Posted by Navy Chief View Post
I did not say it would, you asked for a case where specific injuries occurred at bicycle speed.

But really it depends on where the leg was broken, it is possible that boots could have prevented it.


You could easily prevent the injury by riding a scooter rather than a cruiser. When if it did land on you it wouldnt break your leg. It seems they put themselves at risk because of the choice of bike not because of lack of gear (which they might of had anyway).

I cant see how that is an argument for atgatt
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:11 AM   #792
buckrut1972
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go figure...

My neighbor is the chapter president of the local Blue Knights (law enforcement). You would think that cops see the results of motorcycle accidents as often as they would and would be more ATTATG. But yet I go out with them every time in full gear (no jeans) and there they are in shorts, tennis shoes, t-shirts and brain buckets....

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Old 08-21-2013, 05:13 AM   #793
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Originally Posted by Navy Chief View Post
I did not say it would, you asked for a case where specific injuries occurred at bicycle speed.

But really it depends on where the leg was broken, it is possible that boots could have prevented it.
I have had only 1 motorcycle related injury in over 300,000 miles of riding

was I wearing gear, only partially, I arrived at my destination, took my helmet off while still sitting on bike and did the normal thing for me, hung my helmet from my mirror, then began to get off bike, as I was getting off, my right foot got snagged on the seat somehow, I lot my balance, fell forward put my hands out to break the fall, kicked my SV over the other way as I was going down and broke my left thumb, my gloves were still on but didn't help

the nice thing, when the doctor put the cast on, he left my fingers exposed and I could still operate the clutch and ride ;-)

So, was is a motorcycle accident or did I just stumble on my feet ?
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:13 AM   #794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertical C View Post
Mesh is not as superior as leather (at least on the road) for abrasion so I wouldn't consider that the best and therefore not ATGATT


I am not criticising, I am just showing that everyone looks at the risk and assesses the gear that they wear based on that risk.
This is, again, YOUR definition. Technically, if you wish to be pedantic, ATGATT is not achievable as some of the best gear is not compatible with other of the best gear.

Realistically, ATGATT is a specialized piece of gear that would cover each part of the body. Boots, pants, jacket, gloves and helmet (eye protection if not a full face helmet).

Going to the extreme as you are is just an attempt to cloud the discussion with the adult equivalent of a three year old saying "why" over and over.

Jim
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:59 AM   #795
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Mesh is not as superior as leather (at least on the road) for abrasion so I wouldn't consider that the best and therefore not ATGATT


I am not criticising, I am just showing that everyone looks at the risk and assesses the gear that they wear based on that risk.
You've been arguing that everyone has to buy the most expensive / best products on the market in order to qualify as ATGATT. That's completely unreasonable. A) not everyone can afford it B) I'm sure everyone would have it if (see A)

If you have gear, wear it! That's the point. Get what you can afford, and use it every time.
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