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Old 08-21-2013, 11:21 AM   #811
MMasz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btao View Post
I wish I had pictures of my buddy that bought a scooter on craigslist, took it around the block, hit a patch of sand on the corner by his house, high-sided and left half his face, arm and leg on the pavement. A few skin grafts later at least his face looks normal-ish....

I'd easily argue that scooters are more dangerous, but that's a different discussion.
Same happened to a black dude I knew. Wouldn’t wear a f-f helmet. High sided and left left and chin on the pavement. While it healed after a time, the pigment didn’t return to the injured area.
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:28 AM   #812
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"I already showed you, that that's not right.

"

I guess I'm a slow learner.. could you please enlighten me again, why going slower in traffic than general traffic flow, will improve your safety on a motorcycle?
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:42 AM   #813
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Originally Posted by randyo View Post
that's exactly my point, if I'm not doing a track day or racing, I'm just doing a casual street ride where traffic is almost non existent

where is the big danger
Look up the word "Physics" and thoroughly investigate all the aspects which could apply. (traction, braking, turning, shock absorption, resistance to abrasion of various fabrics, skin, hair, and bone, effects of deceleration trauma to human anatomy, etc.)

Also, look up "Murphy's Law" and give some consideration to the fact that just because you believe the risk is "low" does not mean that you fully grasp the extent to which it does exist. (edit: your risks of a collision with another motorist, road debris, errant driver, pedestrian, etc. are much lower at the trackday. Oddly, this is where you feel is the more appropriate place for ATGATT.)

People who think about risk management in absolutes, like "traffic is almost non-existent" don't fully comprehend the concept of living in a dynamic world.

The only constant in life is change. Expect the unexpected.

If, after considering things rationally and taking into consideration the numerous selection of ways to injure or kill yourself which could be mitigated by forethought, you still choose to dress hoping for the best, well, best wishes on your journey. It is your right to do so and don't let anyone force you to do otherwise.

Dressing like this, for the reason specified, in no way makes an argument against the fact that ATGATT riders will fare better in any given scenario. Including scenarios that do not involve a collision. Just because you are unable to realize "where is the danger?" does not mean it doesn't exist. It only means that you are unable to fathom the extent to which it exists in any given environment.

The odds are in your favor that you will not be involved in a get-off. And, the odds are even more in favor that an ATGATT rider will survive a get-off better than someone in a similar wreck wearing flip-flops, beachwear, and a bandana. (or any other combination of clothing which is not designed to absorb shock and withstand the abrasive road surface while in motion upon it. See reference to "Physics" above.)

Keep in mind that society has changed over the past several decades and, frankly, people have become complacent, seemingly wanting to believe that someone else (god, government, authority figure) has made it all safe for everyone, despite the fact that each day examples can be easily found to disprove this.

While researching, look up "Cognitive Dissonance" as well. Basically this is an aspect of the human condition where information is ignored, even if factual, when it conflicts with some other staunchly held belief.

Those who acknowledge ATGATT is effective, and still do not choose to wear it do not suffer from cognitive dissonance.

Those who are unable to grasp the facts, argue against the effectiveness of ATGATT, and choose to "chance it" because "what are the odds of it happening to me" are likely being affected by cognitive dissonance.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:10 PM   #814
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
So 40% of your way to work is less then 10 miles from home, 67% of your way to the shop is less then 10 miles from home, 100% of the way to the convenience store and 100% of the way to the restaurant. 67% of the way to school.
Obiously these things happen VERY MUCH where you live. Seems like the atgatt crowd isn't very good at doing the math.



And reading isn't the strength of the atgatt crowd either. Why are you inventing tales?
So, you are making my argument for me. Every time I get within about ten miles of home I try to raise my awareness and avoid being one of the statistics.

You seem to think this is a geographic phenomena. It is a thinking problem.

Familiarity of a locale breeds contempt for being vigilant about safety. Those who make up the base of these statistics do so primarily because they let down their guard in familiar territory. Past performance on any given roadway does not indicate future results will be the same.

This is the lesson to be gained from these statistics.

You, seem to miss this entirely and make absurd responses.

What, exactly, is it that you are trying to show by your examples which seem to parrot what I wrote, but somehow you think mean the opposite?

Does it not occur to you that the person who is concerned enough about safety to wear protective gear might also be a person who is less likely to need to use it, because they are more aware of the risks?

I think you are grasping at straws, hoping to "win" in some way that lets you be exposed to the facts, and, allows you to ignore this so you can feel better about your personal choices.

You want to believe that you are no more at risk without all the gear than someone who is ATGATT. Which is of course, absurd.

If you could convince everyone to buy into your argument and go less prepared on their bike, would you feel better about your choice? (because everyone else does it. Re: Lemmings) This in no way changes the facts that define the level of risk exposure in this particular pastime.

The risks are still real. How you prepare in order to manage and mitigate them is a variable. Trying to argue against protective gear in an environment well established for high risk of injury to head, legs, internal organs, and arms (listed, as well as I can remember, in the order of most likely to be damaged per post-crash data) is like an ostrich putting its head in the sand, or Zaphod Beeblebrox putting on Peril-sensitive Sunglasses as a means of avoiding danger.

Just because it makes you feel better is no indication that you will be as safe or safer. It is only a feeling that could be quickly displaced by another feeling, ... of skin peeling off as the fibers of shredded clothing and bits of asphalt are being pushed into the soft tissues. All of which will later be removed to the best of the ability of the emergency room personnel.

Granted, if you want to ride this way and open yourself up for higher risk exposure, please, feel free to do so. It would be nice if you would stop short of trying to convince others that this is the best thing to do for them without having considered the facts.
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MotoTex screwed with this post 08-21-2013 at 12:20 PM
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:38 PM   #815
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
How does producing heat with your body reduce crash injuries?
It does not. Nobody has even claimed it does. You really need to read the sentences until the finish, before you comment on them.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:45 PM   #816
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I seen a guy wreck on the highway while i was driving my cage the other day. I do not wish to see a dangling half a foot on my body. I am not riding again til I get some proper motorcycle boots. He was only wearing a brain bucket. I had to stick around for as a witness, next time Imma just bone out. I could have gone the rest of my life without seeing that crap.

ATGATT overrated?? I think not... He may have been unscathed if he was wearing boots instead of flip-flops! Atleast definitely not as much trauma anyway.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:53 PM   #817
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
It does not. Nobody has even claimed it does. You really need to read the sentences until the finish, before you comment on them.
Comprehension doesn't seem to be fully realized. This may help explain the logic (or lack thereof) behind the responses.

If their native language isn't English, this could be a contributing factor as well.

Or, they are a troll.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:53 PM   #818
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ATGATT is overrated...until you have an off and then you'll be saying "I wish I wore my boots, gloves etc.".

Is it practical to wear full race leathers every day? F' no. But at least FF Helmet, Gloves, Mesh jacket, and Boots should be a minimum. I've had road rash a few times and let me tell you it ain't fun.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:53 PM   #819
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Also, one of wife's co-workers crashed his R1 on he freeway at speed. Bike totaled and he has been in the burn ward the last two weeks. Nothing broken, he just slid for a long, long time.... Only had a helmet and some "work gloves"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukeryder View Post
I've had road rash a few times and let me tell you it ain't fun.
I crashed a mountain bike a few times and that alone is enough to make wear gear on the moto. Road rash on the knee SUCKS!!! I don't want to try that shit ever again.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:54 PM   #820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
I guess I'm a slow learner.. could you please enlighten me again, why going slower in traffic than general traffic flow, will improve your safety on a motorcycle?
Try to listen this time: Shorter stopping distance, more time to handle gravel and unexpected situations, less impact energy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
(edit: your risks of a collision with another motorist, road debris, errant driver, pedestrian, etc. are much lower at the trackday. Oddly, this is where you feel is the more appropriate place for ATGATT.)
ATGATT means there's no "apporpriate place for atgatt" since ALL the places require atg. However, there is a WAAAAAY higher probability of crashing at track days than on public roads, that's the reason why gear is more important there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
The only constant in life is change. Expect the unexpected.
Traffic won't go from practically non-existent to rush hour in an instant at a sunday afternoon. No matter how unexpected that is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
the fact that ATGATT riders will fare better in any given scenario
Personal feelings aren't a general fact. Some may fare better with atgatt and some may fare better without.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
Those who are unable to grasp the facts, argue against the effectiveness of ATGATT, and choose to "chance it" because "what are the odds of it happening to me"...
... weren't seen writing here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
It does not.
So why do you say that producing heat in your body is an excuse for unnecessarily risking your life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
Every time I get within about ten miles of home I try to raise my awareness and avoid being one of the statistics.
Statistics are dangerous when one doesn't understand them. You must understand that it's no geographic phenomena. It's about exposition time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
Does it not occur to you that the person who is concerned enough about safety to wear protective gear might also be a person who is less likely to need to use it, because they are more aware of the risks?
Maybe that's true for some. For me it's not true, because wearing gear and being aware of risks isn't related - and there's no indication that for others it's generally related.

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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
You want to believe that you are no more at risk without all the gear than someone who is ATGATT.
Why are you inventing tales?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
convince everyone to buy into your argument and go less prepared on their bike
Why are you inventing tales?
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:12 PM   #821
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You have a particularly unique perspective.

It has become clear that even though we are looking at the same words you are finding meanings within them that are different than those I had hoped to convey.

Let us simply agree to disagree, as I feel confident that you are either unable to follow the train of thought I have attempted to get across, or, you are simply trolling for the sake of some personal gratification it brings to you.

Either way, it appears clear that continuing this discussion is unlikely to lead to anything beneficial for either of us in the grand scheme of things.
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MotoTex screwed with this post 08-21-2013 at 01:21 PM
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:17 PM   #822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
Try to listen this time: Shorter stopping distance, more time to handle gravel and unexpected situations, less impact energy.

....

So why do you say that producing heat in your body is an excuse for unnecessarily risking your life?
On the first one: any possible benefits of going slower than others heading the same way, will be offset by the fact, that those others will want to pass you. And they´re gonna drive close behind you to get past. That creates whole new risks, that do not exist, if you take your own space on the road, like you should. The slower you go compared to the others, the more risks you create. If you decide to do this in heavy rain, for example, a truck driver coming from behind might not notice your rear light at all. Also you are not gonna get many new friends on the road by being a motorised roadblock for bigger vehicles.

And on the 2nd one: I did explain in detail, why bicyclists are in a very different situation compared to road-riding motorcyclists regarding heat and ventilation. You just chose to ignore that part.
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:20 PM   #823
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
On the first one: any possible benefits of going slower than others heading the same way, will be offset by the fact, that those others will want to pass you. And they´re gonna drive close behind you to get past. That creates whole new risks, that do not exist, if you take your own space on the road, like you should. The slower you go compared to the others, the more risks you create. If you decide to do this in heavy rain, for example, a truck driver coming from behind might not notice your rear light at all. Also you are not gonna get many new friends on the road by being a motorised roadblock for bigger vehicles.
This was actually taught in a Defensive Driving course I attended. Supported by insurance company statistics indicating the safest drivers were those who routinely travel slightly faster than the flow of traffic.
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:21 PM   #824
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
or, you are simply trolling for the sake of some personal gratification it brings to you
I think for him it´s all about getting the last word now. Doesn´t really matter, if he´s had any arguments left for a long time. See, on the internet, the person, who "yells" loudest, and most often, is always right..
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:08 PM   #825
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Mesh is not as superior as leather (at least on the road) for abrasion so I wouldn't consider that the best and therefore not ATGATT
Generally, this is a correct statement. Most manufacturer's mesh offerings will fail in a crash.

One mesh gear manufacturer offers a product that was tested and found to be superior to leather (x10) in tear strength and equivalent in abrasion resistance. This is the one I chose for year-round protection.

Check out Motoport. This link is to a rather extensive article regarding materials, research, testing, and other related information about their products.

Racing suits from Motoport meet or exceed the requirements set by American and European authorities for use in competition and maintain structural integrity over time better than leather. Once leather has been wet from rain or sweat it loses strength in seams and in abrasion resistance.



Tear and Abrasion Strength by the numbers
Product / Material
Pounds of force until fabric tears
Abrasion cycles until fabric fails
CottonJeans 4.5 pounds to tear 50 cycles to failure
70 Denier Standard Nylon 4.5 pounds to tear 165 cycles to failure
500 Denier Polyester 8 pounds to tear 180 cycles to failure
200 Denier Standard Nylon 7.5 pounds to tear 275 cycles to failure
500 Denier Cordura 22 pounds to tear 710 cycles to failure
620 Denier Cordura 35 pounds to tear 1200 cycles to failure
NEW Competition Grade Leather 80-110 pounds to tear 1200-1700 cycles to failure
1000 Denier Cordura 110 pounds to tear 1780 cycles to failure
Air Mesh Kevlar 1260 pounds to tear 1800 cycles to failure
Stretch Kevlar Blend 420 pounds to tear 1800 cycles to failure
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