ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > GSpot > Parallel Universe
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-10-2012, 08:34 PM   #1
moulin6801 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: TN
Oddometer: 172
Why does Harley recommends Synthetic Oil for Eng and Trans right way, and BMW does no

Hey guys, I have owned 2 new Harleys in the last 6 years and Harley Davidson Techs, encourage changing to Syn Oil for Tans and Engine as soon as possible! and yet, BMW tells me that Engine is breaking in up to 10K miles and you should not use Synthetic Oil until than....
Can anyone tell me why???
Cheers
David
moulin6801 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2012, 08:51 PM   #2
señormoto
Supermoto Abuser
 
señormoto's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: California + Costa Rica
Oddometer: 1,110
not sure why they told you that, but for the love of god we don't need ANOTHER oil thread. Run whatever you want as long as it's 10w40 and be happy riding... these engines don't need to be babied with special oil.
__________________
I have a feeling that there are some decisions being made on certain teams lately to make things more complex in order to ensure a certain technological standard of confusion is met.
señormoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 12:19 AM   #3
speck
It's all about endorphins
 
speck's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: Tucson, Aridzona (Fulton, NY originally)
Oddometer: 30
Great question!

I've got a Sporty and a F800GS. I wasn't aware that Harley recommended synthetic (my Sporty is a 2002, maybe that's why) but BMW definitely advises to wait until 10k miles to switch.

I personally don't believe in switching. I think oil "seasons" the engine. Switching might corrupt this. Maybe this is an irrational belief. But it's my own personal psychosis ad I'm sticking to it.
__________________
"one fast move or I'm gone......"
speck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 01:03 AM   #4
Hicks
der Überluber
 
Hicks's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Prague, CZ
Oddometer: 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by señormoto View Post
not sure why they told you that, but for the love of god we don't need ANOTHER oil thread. Run whatever you want as long as it's 10w40 and be happy riding... these engines don't need to be babied with special oil.
can be imho a very misleading information especially for beginners.

F800GS, unlike the cars or 12GS, does not have DRY CLUTCH, but the wet one.

So the oil is common for the:

- engine
- transmission
- clutch

so it MUST have a special additives.. so SG, SH, SJ grade oils imho.

---

+

also I've heard, that BMW is switching to 10W50 for our engines.
__________________
R1200GS 2013 LC, F800GS '08 (130 000+km)
.de + .at + .it + .sk + .pl + .hu + .li + .ch + .fr + .es + .p + .and + .lu + .be + .nl + .uk + .sco + .ork + .slo + .hr + .bih + .srb
Hicks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 05:59 AM   #5
vtbob
wanderer
 
Joined: Jun 2009
Location: Western Vermont
Oddometer: 517
The F800 engine is water and oil cooled. Once up to operating temperature, the whole engine sees a very stable, consistent and NOT at all stress full to oil environment.

Any air cooled engine sees much greater thermal stress in both temperature range and in physical demension changes in the engine due to heat. On cold days, parts of the engine are cool, some parts very cool, on hot days in slow moving traffic the engine and the oil get very hot, sometimes over the temperature where oil cooks...some time evan enough to seize the engine...ie aluminum pistons swell to seize in cast iron cylinders.

So, Air cooled engines are much harder on oil. Because of dimensional changes they also often need 50W oil.

Setting oil additives aside, as they can be added to any out...ie premium oil vs cheap oil the key difference between synthetic is it's consistency over temperature (viscosity relative stable) and it's much better resistance to oxidation (burning/toasting). It's ablily to lubricate is essentially identical the dino oil.

So using synthetic in a air cooled engine is more beneficial that using it in a oil and water cooled engine.

Any oil that meets the manufactures spec API/JAMA etc is just fine. Spend $$ to only make you feel good
vtbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 07:19 AM   #6
TowPro
Getting there
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Compass PA
Oddometer: 2,800
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtbob View Post
The F800 engine is water and oil cooled. Once up to operating temperature, the whole engine sees a very stable, consistent and NOT at all stress full to oil environment.

So, Air cooled engines are much harder on oil. Because of dimensional changes they also often need 50W oil.

Setting oil additives aside, as they can be added to any out...ie premium oil vs cheap oil the key difference between synthetic is it's consistency over temperature (viscosity relative stable) and it's much better resistance to oxidation (burning/toasting). It's ablily to lubricate is essentially identical the dino oil.


Any oil that meets the manufactures spec API/JAMA etc is just fine. Spend $$ to only make you feel good
We got a winner! Synthetic holds up better to the extreme heat in the HD (air cooled) motor.

And Its JASO. As far SG, SH, SJ grade oils , if it says "energy conserving" on the bottle, don't run it. Energy conserving means there is a additive added that is no good for a wet clutch.

Also I think it was After SJ they lowered the amount of zinc dialkyl-dithio-phosphate (ZDDP) in the oil, which is something that is good to have in oil (google zddp)

Also some people prefer to run oil that is API/C? rated (S is for Spark ignition (gas engine), C is for Compression ignition (diesel) as the C oils seem to have more ZDDP and some other packages that are disappearing in modern API/S oils.
__________________
2014 R1200GS - My Naked Street Touring Bike
2000 KTM LC4 640 E - For everything else
TowPro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 02:03 PM   #7
GH41
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Oddometer: 822
What vtbob said!! My last Harley was a 130HP Roadking. Dino oil started to darken up at 1-1,200 miles. Full synthetic Redline would go 2,500 and still look clear. I know that is not a scientific test but the syn oil appeared handled heat better. Another thing I noticed with synthetic oil is a very clean engine. No deposits at all when you open it up. BTW, you have to open a high HP Harley engine often! Sometimes it will do it by itself! GH
GH41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 04:03 AM   #8
ragtoplvr
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: S. W. Mssouri
Oddometer: 5,612
BMW is in Europe, they did not have a stupid USA judge that said severely hydrocracked oil was synthetic.

In Europe Syn oil is PAO or Esters. That is what BMW wishes to avoid. In USA most Syn is severely hydrocracked Dino oil, and is not enough different to cause a problem. So, if you can discover it is not PAO or Ester, you should be able to use it just fine as long as also approved for wet clutch.


Rod
ragtoplvr is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 01:21 PM   #9
puckinet
Safety third
 
puckinet's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Bonney Lake, Washington
Oddometer: 345
Synthetic is less harmful to the environment when it leaks
__________________
Our famous last words "It doesn't look too bad".

08 KTM 450 EXCR
2010 BMW F800GS
Rick
puckinet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 01:42 PM   #10
TowPro
Getting there
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Compass PA
Oddometer: 2,800
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
Please provide the citation to the opinion. Thanks!

Fred


especially the part about not using PAO (group IV) or Esters (group V).

Looking at my owners manual, the first oil in the list is Castrol GPS SAE 10w-40
searching the internet shows
Castrol Power RS GPS 4T with Trizone Technology is an advanced premium quality sythetic blend 4 stroke engine oil designed for modern engines.
Since this comes from Europe, I guess it has either PAO or Esters in it since it says synthetic?
__________________
2014 R1200GS - My Naked Street Touring Bike
2000 KTM LC4 640 E - For everything else
TowPro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2012, 11:30 PM   #11
Steveman
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Steveman's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Austria
Oddometer: 471
The European (German) Owners Manual does nowhere states that synthetic oil should not be used. However, BMW recommends Catsrol GPS which is hard to get over here as noone buys mineral oils or non-synthetic oils. Most dealers offer Castrol Power RS which is synthetic.
I use the Putoline Technomoto 10/40 which is semi synthetic. Mates using synthetic Motul V300 15/50 with Ester and dont have any problems with the F8...

Cheers Steve
Steveman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2012, 07:14 AM   #12
ragtoplvr
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: S. W. Mssouri
Oddometer: 5,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
Please provide the citation to the opinion. Thanks!

Fred
Oil group definition

http://globalindustrialsolutions.net...definition.php

As usual Wiki has a lot to say about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil

read down a page

Google is your friend if you wish to find the lawsuit, I was I think Mobil Vs Chevron. I have seen it but I do not have the time

Rod
ragtoplvr is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2012, 07:45 AM   #13
moulin6801 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: TN
Oddometer: 172
So, are you guys saying that BMW does not recommend Syn oil because it has/ uses a "wet clutch" ??
What does it mean exactly? Is it better than dry??
Thanks
moulin6801 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2012, 11:10 AM   #14
TowPro
Getting there
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Compass PA
Oddometer: 2,800
This is all hearsay to me until I READ where BMW says "no synthetic oil". Not the dealer, not the rider, but BMW needs to say it. In the mean time I will continue to use Amsoil synthetic oil made for motorcycles with wet clutches. It even comes with a warranty that reads something like if Amsoil oil causes a motor failure, Amsoil will fix it.

PS: it was Mobil that took Castrol to court.
And I am told that the group III can be called synthetic is a world wide thing, not just the USA..
__________________
2014 R1200GS - My Naked Street Touring Bike
2000 KTM LC4 640 E - For everything else
TowPro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2012, 12:53 PM   #15
JRWooden
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: The great state of confusion
Oddometer: 4,130
I'm going to stand on the sidelines and listen except to say that the oil recommended in the manual is:

10W-40 Castrol Act -> Evo X-TRA 4T which is a "semi-synthetic" I'm sure Castrol slips BMW a few bucks for printing that in the manual,
but just to avoid any issues I use it.
JRWooden is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 11:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014