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Old 08-22-2014, 10:18 PM   #1
NewToMe OP
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1190R heat investigation

I have an 1190 R and am getting cooked in the Texas heat. I ride daily and the 100F temps are fine when going ATGATT, as long as I am moving. But when stopped, or when I've been on the freeway for more than 10-20 miles, the heat really seems to ramp up on my legs. Before spending money to cook my ECU a bit more, I decided to put on my engineer's cap and do a little experimental research.

The answer is in the data, so I needed to collect some data.

Only one evening of data so far, but I have started.

First, a word of thanks to the inmate who inspired me to look at an Arduino as the hardware for this task. I don't recall who or which thread, but you know who you are. I will happily share the software sketch and talk hardware with anyone wanting to do the same.

I installed five digital thermometers (using an Arduino as my datalogging and display computer.) I have it wired with an additional three thermocouples for high temps, intended for the heads and exhaust, but have not yet placed the sensors. Sensors are currently:
1) in front of the radiator (it gets hot when I sit still but give ambient when rolling)
2) under the seat at the front side of the ECU
3) in the edge of the duct from the radiator thru the fuel tank on the right side
4) on the outside, right bottom edge of the seat, below my leg, and
5) on the outside, left bottom edge of the seat, below my leg

It was 98-100F after sundown today. I rode only about 15 miles between 65-80 mph. (had to make it to see Guardians of the Galaxy, which was well worth the effort)

I rode a mile to dinner and let it soak for half an hour. I then drove over to the freeway and took off. Up to 70 and hovered between 65 and 75 for 7 miles. Turned around and went back the same way between 65 and 80. Exited the freeway and wandered back to the casa at posted 35 mph (2-3 miles)

When I got to the freeway and reached steady state, all temps except the duct were 98-100. The duct was holding at about 102. When I exited the freeway, the temps started climbing. When I was cruising along at 30-35, the ECU reached 122, the duct was 136, the legs were both about 125.
When i stopped moving (as I pulled into the garage and shut it down), the duct shot up to 156, ECU went to 133, and the legs were 124 and 118, after I got off the bike.

The data is in Excel, and I will do a bit more testing tomorrow. Then I will be fashioning some "wing-like" barriers and watch the temps. I also plan to cobble together a solution to raise the R seat about an inch and see if I can promote airflow under the seat. I will also try to get the exhaust and hear data started.

Pics coming soon - the sensors are taped on with blue painter's tape for today's test, so give me day to neaten it up.

Thought?
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Old 08-23-2014, 12:40 AM   #2
MarchHare
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Two thoughts I suppose; firstly the success of the Wings shields don't need a thermometer to measure in terms of personal comfort. However the impact of these on the induction temperatures and, perhaps more importantly the life of sensitive electronics like the ECU is a concern.

I would be interested in how hot the ECU gets with and without the Wings (or similar) but also what the implications are for the electronics. So far I have not heard of any ECU failures whether due to heat or any other cause, though that doesn't mean they are not coming.

I have put extra reflective insulation under the seat plus the wings blanket and side panels and it has certainly improved comfort but at what price long term?

Does anyone know what operating temperature range the stock ECU might be expected to function without damage?
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Old 08-23-2014, 05:35 AM   #3
NewToMe OP
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This was precisely my concern. I will "Wing it" only so long as they don't just trap the heat and burn up the bike's brain.
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Old 08-23-2014, 06:18 AM   #4
4bikes
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I have "Winged" mine (1190 std), and the heat is no longer a problem. Now I'm looking forward to you telling that I will not cook my ECU.
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Old 08-23-2014, 06:20 AM   #5
antirich5
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Been dealing with the same heat issue, trying a bunch of things on a semi-scientific approach. Here's my results so far:

ktm powersports seat
This has helped a bit, foam is much better at keeping the heat off of the rider, not a complete solution. Plus, the radiated heat off of the sides is still there.

Small heat blanket over the rear pipe
I got this idea from the spy photos of the 2015 bike. Found one for sale at JEGs, which carries of ton of drag racing parts. Apparently heat is a huge issue with dragsters.



I had to cut a hole out for the o2 sensor, but no big deal. But in the end, I don't think it helped too much. Probably should have gotten the 6" wide unit, for 4" didn't over the diameter of the fat pipe too well. May end up taking it off, looks a little sloppy


Adhesive heat block material-complete engine heat block
Again, from JEGs, I ordered a sheet of super high temp, flexible heat shield with sound barrier. I used this before in cars, and works great. My initial goal was to create a thermo barrier under the seat; completely blocking all heat from rising to the seat.

At first, I realized that just placing this material over the wires and ecu will create a concentrated oven for the ECU and harness. Not a good idea.

I then created a barrier the sat under the ecu and most of the harness. This seemed to make the most sense. Material was very easy to work with, and I ended up making a 2-ply barrier.

But after a 20 test ride, I quickly realized that this made it worse. I thought the Henares seat was on, it was that bad. I ended up pulling over and ripping the material out, which helped. Apparently, it just reflected the heat back to the motor and up the sides.

Reflective heat block on seat, factory and aftermarket
Added the OEM heat shield to the powersports seat, as well as some of the new material. This helps, but the heat coming from the sides and tank is still there.

I also added some reflective material to the back of the fuel tank for good measure. Don't want to heat at up the fuel if I can help prevent it

Carbon fiber side shields
I made a pair of side shields from carbon fiber. Similar to some of the home made attempts that others have done in plastic, will use zip ties to mount. Just used carbon fiber cause I have a roll of the stuff, and it's fun to make things :-)

The fit is perfect, but haven't tried it yet. More to come

Wings muffler
Have one on order, should help let the motor breath a bit. Also moves the pipe a good 4" down.

Custom tune
This is really what I think is needed. The motor just feels like it's running lean, especially in the low rpms. Would make sense for emission reasons. Explains the excessive heat and 3000 rpm stumble. Just don't like the idea of a power commander on the bike, hoping to find a shop that can tap into the ecu somehow, but not looking good :-(


Manual fan switch
This is another item that I think will help. But after some discussion from another inmate over the schematics, I believe this could effect the Ecu's signal to the upper fan. Gonna talk to a shop about it, or maybe just install a small fan to the clutch side of the radiator. Already have a switch in place.

Ktm low temp sensor
Some inmates have discussed a factory sensor that opens up and lower temps. Sounds like a good idea, but don't have time to order and install one. Gotta ship the bike out in a



Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchHare View Post
Two thoughts I suppose; firstly the success of the Wings shields don't need a thermometer to measure in terms of personal comfort. However the impact of these on the induction temperatures and, perhaps more importantly the life of sensitive electronics like the ECU is a concern.

I would be interested in how hot the ECU gets with and without the Wings (or similar) but also what the implications are for the electronics. So far I have not heard of any ECU failures whether due to heat or any other cause, though that doesn't mean they are not coming.

I have put extra reflective insulation under the seat plus the wings blanket and side panels and it has certainly improved comfort but at what price long term?

Does anyone know what operating temperature range the stock ECU might be expected to function without damage?
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Old 08-23-2014, 06:22 AM   #6
antirich5
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Btw: black dog cycle has posted some thermo imaging from their new heat shield product testing. I don't think they use a blanket either, just plastic sides:

http://blackdogcw.com/black-dog-shop...re-detail.html
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Old 08-23-2014, 08:48 AM   #7
manxkipper
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According to some australian guys removal of the cat makes the most difference to the heat issue.
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Old 08-23-2014, 11:33 AM   #8
srosa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manxkipper View Post
According to some australian guys removal of the cat makes the most difference to the heat issue.
There are also posts within OC that report that cat delete headers for the 1190 adv don't help that much with the heat issue. It would be great to see some actual heat test data on this configuration.
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Old 08-23-2014, 03:50 PM   #9
Yellow Pig
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I took some temps with an IR laser thermometer and the two hottest items were:

1- Rear header 270/280 F
2- Cat 360/370F

Temps taken after a ride. Let the bike idle in the garage for 5 min.

The big "feeling" of heat is when the radiator fan kicks on and all the hot air from the radiator travels back under the tank instead of exiting to the sides through the tank vents.
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Old 08-23-2014, 06:10 PM   #10
srosa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Pig View Post
The big "feeling" of heat is when the radiator fan kicks on and all the hot air from the radiator travels back under the tank instead of exiting to the sides through the tank vents.
Thanks. This makes perfect sense based on what I'm experiencing.
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Old 08-24-2014, 08:05 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srosa View Post
There are also posts within OC that report that cat delete headers for the 1190 adv don't help that much with the heat issue. It would be great to see some actual heat test data on this configuration.
Well, I had my headers ceramic coated, and removed the cat. It has definitely made a huge difference in heat. For less that $200 I am considering my bike cured. If I lived in texas there may still be more to do, but I just went off roading this weekend, in very slow rocky sections - mostly clutching it in first gear. No seat heat, no tank heat....
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Old 08-24-2014, 08:59 AM   #12
spdtrpl
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I also live in Texas so have suffered through the same problems, commuting on the standard bike in Houston was unbearable.

Changing to the Ergo seats helped a little, then I bought the Wings heat guards a couple of thousand miles ago and consider them to have completely cured the problem.
I used the original heat shield from the standard seats and installed them on the riders Ergo seat, when I got the Wings seat I added their heat shield material. That might be overkill, but by that time I was sick of getting my butt roasted.


It makes sense to wrap/cool the exhaust as obviously the hottest part of the motor, but that still leaves the rest of the motor emitting a very large amount of heat. Now I have the wings installed I don't feel the need to coat/wrap the exhaust or make any other changes

Bottom pic. shows my left leg getting roasted before I installed the wings, sorry I haven't taken any pics since the installation.





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Old 08-24-2014, 11:23 AM   #13
Yellow Pig
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Here is my take on the issue:



Basically you have four major factors that contribute to the 1190's heat problem:

  • Heat extracted from the radiator travels to the rear under the tank instead of exiting to the sides through the fuel tank side vents.
  • Hot radiator air traveling to the rear under the tank picks up additional heat from the engine and headers.
  • The rear header gets minimal cooling airflow since it's shielded by the engine. (Measured at 370F with a cheap IR Laser Thermometer after coming home from a ride and letting bike idle for 5 min in driveway)
  • The catalytic converter sits under everything heating up engine, frame, footpegs etc... (Measured at 280F with a cheap IR Laser Thermometer after coming home from a ride and letting bike idle for 5 min in driveway)
Note: I was surprised that the rear header was hotter than the Cat.


All four heat sources focus their heat intensity right under the riders seat. In particular the hot air that flows from the radiator and picks up additional heat from the engine does not escape the bike till it flows under the rear of the tank spills out under the seat flowing up and cooking the riders thighs.


Possible solutions:


  • Sealing the tank to the frame and to the engine, so that hot air from the radiator is forced out the tank side vents instead of flowing under the tank to the rider seat.
  • De-Cat and ceramic coat header
  • Re-map bike to a richer AFR (most bikes are mapped lean from the factory to pass emission testing).
  • Injecting cold outside air under the tank and under the seat to cool the hot air.

Implementing any of these solution swill help with the heat problem, but I do not think it will completely eliminate the issue unless all four heat sources are addressed.

At this point side heat panels such as the Wings and the Black Dog seem to be efficient at keeping the heat from reaching the rider. My issue with these systems is the long term effect that the intense heat will have on the motorcycles electronic components and rear shock. In fact one of the side panel makers has an extensive disclaimer on this effect.

I have not been able to measure the heat differential under the seat between a stock bike and a side paneled bike. It might not be a s much as expected. So if anyone can do a before and after please post up.
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Old 08-24-2014, 08:37 PM   #14
nikoktm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Pig View Post
Here is my take on the issue:



Basically you have four major factors that contribute to the 1190's heat problem:

  • Heat extracted from the radiator travels to the rear under the tank instead of exiting to the sides through the fuel tank side vents.
  • Hot radiator air traveling to the rear under the tank picks up additional heat from the engine and headers.
  • The rear header gets minimal cooling airflow since it's shielded by the engine. (Measured at 370F with a cheap IR Laser Thermometer after coming home from a ride and letting bike idle for 5 min in driveway)
  • The catalytic converter sits under everything heating up engine, frame, footpegs etc... (Measured at 280F with a cheap IR Laser Thermometer after coming home from a ride and letting bike idle for 5 min in driveway)
Note: I was surprised that the rear header was hotter than the Cat.


All four heat sources focus their heat intensity right under the riders seat. In particular the hot air that flows from the radiator and picks up additional heat from the engine does not escape the bike till it flows under the rear of the tank spills out under the seat flowing up and cooking the riders thighs.


Possible solutions:


  • Sealing the tank to the frame and to the engine, so that hot air from the radiator is forced out the tank side vents instead of flowing under the tank to the rider seat.
  • De-Cat and ceramic coat header
  • Re-map bike to a richer AFR (most bikes are mapped lean from the factory to pass emission testing).
  • Injecting cold outside air under the tank and under the seat to cool the hot air.

Implementing any of these solution swill help with the heat problem, but I do not think it will completely eliminate the issue unless all four heat sources are addressed.

At this point side heat panels such as the Wings and the Black Dog seem to be efficient at keeping the heat from reaching the rider. My issue with these systems is the long term effect that the intense heat will have on the motorcycles electronic components and rear shock. In fact one of the side panel makers has an extensive disclaimer on this effect.

I have not been able to measure the heat differential under the seat between a stock bike and a side paneled bike. It might not be a s much as expected. So if anyone can do a before and after please post up.
Great investigation and post. Many thanks for that.
I'm doing the second option (arrow manifold and ceramic paint) also working on re-mapping the bike.. I will post some pictures next week
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Old 08-25-2014, 10:48 AM   #15
XsilverGS
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Hi NewToMe

Have pm'd you for a copy of your Arduino Sketch

Thanks
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