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Old 04-24-2012, 08:52 AM   #16
ericrat
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Please disregard my post

I had apparently inserted my head someplace dark.
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:57 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
Those bolts do not need loctite. They need new washers and torqued to 190 INCH pounds. A wrench that goes to 75 foot pounds is not the wrench to use. You have got two bads going on at once. Not knowing the correct torque value AND not having the correct tool for the job. I am just trying to help! Good luck!
Clutch bolts at 190 inch/lbs? I thought late model clutch pates were 17 inch/lbs - with a star washwer? I can see flywheel bolts that high but clutch plate bolts?

What am I missing?
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:29 AM   #18
supershaft
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Early model bolts get 17ftlb. That's 204inpd. Later bolts get 16ftlb. That's 192inpd. That one foot pound difference is critical in this situation since the star washers on the later setup sometimes can't even stand 192 inch pounds without splitting or spreading out. I always have extra star washers in my shop because they sometimes do split or spread out even with the correct torque. If they do, I back it off and start with a new washer since a split or spread washer is going to let the bolt come loose. Just like sump bolts, late model clutch bolts really could use the proper inch pound torque wrench to do the job right.

Ericrat's bolts came loose because he OVER tightened the bolts and split the star washers which reduced the bolt tension and let them back out. The bolts can take it but the star washers can't.
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Old 04-24-2012, 02:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supershaft View Post

Ericrat's bolts came loose because he OVER tightened the bolts and split the star washers which reduced the bolt tension and let them back out. The bolts can take it but the star washers can't.
Yeah Ericrat....next time you come over to New Zealand and over tighten my clutch bolts and break my star washers your in trouble...
In the words of Colin Chapman ... 'We wouldn't put a washer underneath the head of a bolt, why.....what are you going to do that for? Why do you want to take the washer around the track?'"
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:17 PM   #20
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I have never tried running them without the star washer since I have never had any trouble with the star washer. It might work! I won't be doing the experimenting!
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:09 PM   #21
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For racing duty, I'd cut the bolts so that 1-1/2 to 2 threads stick out the other end and give it a drop of heavy-duty thread lock, see the Loctite site.

Forget the washers.

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Old 04-24-2012, 08:25 PM   #22
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I have never tried running them without the star washer since I have never had any trouble with the star washer. It might work! I won't be doing the experimenting!
Thats cool, I'm all for experimenting on a bike that has been built up of bits from all over.
So far experimented with:
DIY second front disc mount made by modifying a RH one.
DIY engine lift bars.
Brembo handle bar M/C with SS hoses and ATE brakes...works very well.
36mm stubs on an R90 head
Racetech fork mods, Brembo fork internals in an ATE set of lowers.
later clutch on early crank
Ducati carbs
and so on.....

Next I have an Ignitech programmable igniton to tinker with
I'm now looking for a better torque wrench though....1/4" drive"...?
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:48 PM   #23
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Experimenting? No need to so far. My advise is to run what is known to work on your clutch and spend your time on more important lap time reducing mods like jetting, ignition timing, suspension, etc.. I hope you noticed that PaulRS was saying what he "would" do, not what he has done. No washers might work fine but I haven't had the need or the time to find out since washers installed correctly work perfectly whether they are being raced or not. It might be a good way to ruin a weekend and spend a lot of money that could be better spent on other things. If a bunch of people jump in and say they have been running no washers with no problems that is one thing but . . . . Just trying to help!

Better wrench? You just need a different one. You need three or four different range torque wrenches to use them correctly on airheads.
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:39 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
Experimenting? No need to so far. My advise is to run what is known to work on your clutch and spend your time on more important lap time reducing mods like jetting, ignition timing, suspension, etc.. I hope you noticed that PaulRS was saying what he "would" do, not what he has done. No washers might work fine but I haven't had the need or the time to find out since washers installed correctly work perfectly whether they are being raced or not. It might be a good way to ruin a weekend and spend a lot of money that could be better spent on other things. If a bunch of people jump in and say they have been running no washers with no problems that is one thing but . . . . Just trying to help!

Better wrench? You just need a different one. You need three or four different range torque wrenches to use them correctly on airheads.
Quote:
I always have extra star washers in my shop because they sometimes do split or spread out even with the correct torque.
Quote:
I have never tried running them without the star washer since I have never had any trouble with the star washer

Voltaire screwed with this post 04-25-2012 at 01:51 AM Reason: tweeking
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Old 04-25-2012, 02:40 PM   #25
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Hey now! I am just trying to help. That does make sense if you think about it. I have never had any trouble with them once I get them installed correctly and I have installed tons of them on all sorts of BMW models. All the later longitudinal crank models use them and they normally cause no issues IF you mind putting them in right.
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:23 PM   #26
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If you want tons of heresay, do as super says. If you want results, stick to specs. Your choice.
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:41 PM   #27
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If you want tons of heresay, do as super says. If you want results, stick to specs. Your choice.
Isn't that exactly what Supershaft is suggesting? Sticking to specs?
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:58 PM   #28
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I'm now looking for a better torque wrench though....1/4" drive"...?

You can borrow mine, it's metric but I'm sure you've got enough computing power to work out the conversion. (KTM's have very low torque settings too!)
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:04 PM   #29
supershaft
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Isn't that exactly what Supershaft is suggesting? Sticking to specs?
Thanks pj. You are correct. Sometimes I can't figure out how he gets what he does out of what I write.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:09 PM   #30
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Did a bit of a search on " star washers"
the general opinion seems to be along the lines of:

Quote:
Tooth lockwashers (Figure 15) are used with screws and nuts for some spring action but mostly for locking action. The teeth are formed in a twisted configuration with sharp edges. One edge bites into the bolthead (or nut) while the other edge bites into the mating surface.


Although this washer does provide some locking action, it damages the mating surfaces. These scratches can cause crack formation in highly stressed fasteners, in mating parts, or both, as well as decreased corrosion resistance.
Having visited the factory in Spandau once I'd guess they are used more for fast and easy assembly than good engineering practice.
Any non shade tree engineers have an opinion on these?
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