Which is better for improving your riding skills?

[outlaws justice]

Originally Posted by windmill

You wouldn't use the same line through a corner on the street that you would on a track, and you don't "commit" to a line on the street the same way you would on a track.

I disagree, but the differance on the street is "Your Track" is only 12 feet wide. When you treat your lane as all there is you can use good lines and committ to them. Also your speed should be reduced to account for unknows and other drivers/riders.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by windmill

What I am saying, technique is how you would actually use your skills, and skill is the ability to use techniques. What is best for one environment isn't best for all environments.

i got ya now.

[phoenixdoglover]

You guys all have tons more experience than me, but I will say this. When I ride on dirt a lot, I feel much more confident when I get back on paved roads. The other way, not so much.

[urbanXJ]

do a track day, listen to your instructor

[markk53]

Originally Posted by Wraith Rider

Depends on what you want to practice. More lean angle, experimenting with different lines or hold your line as precise as possible - short, well known piece of the road. Judging corners, scanning for dangers on the fly, recognizing traffic situations - foreign areas.

My sentiments too, but to go one step further...

You can/should practice more than just apexing turns etc. You need to practice moving around in the turn, the thing you may need to do if there is something in the road. It isn't about cornering fast or getting the best line. It's about learning how to change lines, move out wider or dive in deeper. It is about braking in the corner. It is about developing avoidance techniques over fast riding skills. Of course you do include the faster riding, but that isn't the focus. One more thing, developing avoidance techniques will give more confidence to carry higher cornering speeds because you know you can get out of a situation if encountered.

[windmill]

Originally Posted by outlaws justice

I disagree, but the differance on the street is "Your Track" is only 12 feet wide. When you treat your lane as all there is you can use good lines and committ to them. Also your speed should be reduced to account for unknows and other drivers/riders.

You disagree, then say that you ride the street differently than the track.
I don't see how that isn't applying same skills but using different techniques as I stated.

[Pantah]

IMO, the key to improved street skills is superior traffic management. Street riding is clearly more risky than just about any other type of recreational form. All those rolling hazards we ride with! Lots of them represent a threat of instant death.

OTOH, if you want to get a better handle on the physics at work affecting your motorcycle and trajectory, I think track day training is the best way to gain skill. The reason is because you are shown the skills you need to acquire. No guessing at all.

But if you really want to enjoy a motorcycle's limits, the dirt is the place. The reason is there is no traction compared to pavement. You can learn about the limits at low speeds. As a result, you learn more limits. But I recco instruction there too. It takes too long to learn through seat time.

Lastly, I agree completely with the earlier comment that urban riding was more like trail riding. The surface. The hazards. The speeds. No wonder the urban houligan bikes are all derivatives of a dirtbike!

Push that inside bar down and load the outside peg...

[markk53]

The unique thing that riding public roads presents that off road riding of any sort (including paved track riding/racing) do not is the rolling hazards like those turning left in front of you, pulling out on you, and doing other foolish maneuvers in 3000-80,000 lb rolling metal objects that can injure and maim you severely. They present the high speed encounters with wild life too. I know, some off roading has idiots doing stupid stuff too, but less frequently and trees don't jump out in front of you. The paved tracks have everyone going the same way as do many off road tracks, a specific direction of riding.

The best skill anyone can develop for public road use is the skill of being observant, predicting what may or has happened, and how to react in an instant. That comes from both learning/practicing the riding skills discussed here, both on and off road as can be done, and one more... That one more is to actually visualize what could happen when ridiing the road, and what you would/should do.

• If you're running a limited access road, what would you do if cut off or encountered someone driving the wrong way or coming across the median and where would you go?
• On regular highways what if you are passed and cut short, a driver is tailgating at an uncomfortable distance, someone comes up to a side road and could pull out in front of you, someone is coming to a stop in the other lane and could possibly turn left in front of you, you are going around a blind corner and something could be out of sight, or it is possible wildlife might come out from the side of the road where will you go, what will you do?
• You are in town and every intersection, alley, parking lot, or driveway presents opportunity for a car, motorcycle, bicycle or person running out into the road what will you do and where will you go?

After a fair amount of time your constant thought process starts to take less and less of your attention, yet still is working, much like Code talks about in his racing lessons. You have developed a skill to be evaluating what, where, and when that is in constant use. It comes from practicing your evasion process in your mind over and over and over, along with the riding skills you practice, including the hard threshold braking you shout do and the ability to move to the inside or outside of a corner. This whole process is what makes you survive on the public roads. It is what makes you able to ride for years and even decades of time without what you would call a close call.

The above is probably the most important skill you need on the public roadway. Evasion of moving hazards as well as the surface conditions. Your biggest risk is someone failing to yield right of way, encountering bad road conditions, and then simply riding over your head without knowing what to do.

[kerhonky]

Originally Posted by rocker59

Both.

At a trackday, you can develop your skills while also learning the limits of your bike.

Truthfully, on the public roads, you shouldn't be pushing hard enough to learn your bike's limits.

However, actively seeking out and riding new twisty roads will help you develop the skill or "reading the road".

Riding a familiar public road repeatedly will help you, but there is a limit to how far you can push. You can put a knee down and drag hard parts at a trackday with little chance of really bad things happening. On a public road, even a familiar one, the envelope is much narrower and the consequences much higher.

Off pavement can teach you how a bike feels when it's out of shape. Drifting, sliding, etc. Those skills definitely transfer to street/track.


So, how long have you been riding? What do you ride?

I've been riding for 8 years, on a V-Strom 650 for the past 6. Bought the Wee because I wanted to get out on more dirt roads and such, but haven't made the time to do that.

The responses so far make a lot of sense; both situations (repeatedly riding familiar roads and riding unfamiliar territory) provide skills and abilities that are necessary for safe riding. So the real answer to my original question is either "neither" or "both." There's a value to making each commute a practice ride, picking my turn-in points, getting on the throttle and off the brakes at the right time, trying to make that elusive "perfect" turn without necessarily trying to do it at top speed. But riding new areas keeps your mind sharp and reaction times quicker, and requires you to make the judgments about speed and such that sort of become habit on a ride you take every day.

Good to know about the class opportunities in Troy and Po-town. I had looked for track days and the closest I had come up with were NH and NJ (tonystrackdays.com).

[NJ-Brett]

I would say ride a lot, in every situation, street, track, dirt.
I rode dirt a long time before I was old enough to get on the street, so I had the basic skills and automatic reactions down, one less thing to worry about while dealing with traffic.
I then started on learing to ride well drunk, or in the rain, or drunk in the rain, on drugs, drunk, in the rain, and after that, normal street riding seems easy.

Since I hardly ever wear any gear besides a helmet, I use care because sliding down the road hurts, as I learned during the drunk rain riding training...

Dirt riding tought me to pay a LOT of attention to where I was going and what was around.
Take the mirror off a jeep mid turn in the dirt a few times and you learn to treat blind turns with respect.
Hit a few big holes on a bike with limited suspension and you learn to study the trail/road and how to use the brakes to the max.

I think the skills needed to go really fast on the street are of little help in making it safer to ride in traffic.
Maybe a little safer, and maybe a lot more going faster then you should, pushing those limits a little bit more.
Traffic is its own animal, and just like some animals, some are better to stay away from rather then learn how to tame.

On the track, its all about going very fast, on a controlled course, all in the same direction, with good sight lines, and usually on a nice uniform surface.
The street could hardly be more different.
The dirt is a LOT closer, things pulling out, holes, slick spots, animals jumping.

[ultrachrome]

The line you should be using on the street should be different than what you'd use on a track, or at least that's what my training has taught me. On a track, you don't encounter oncoming traffic.

Lee Parks Total Control
Puget Safety's Advanced Street Skills
2Fast Track Day

I learned the most from the first two. I didn't really learn anything at the track day. I followed the instructors around but didn't get much feedback. There was some classroom time where they repeated the key concepts covered by Total Control and A.S.S.

[markk53]

Originally Posted by Pantah

IMO, the key to improved street skills is superior traffic management. Street riding is clearly more risky than just about any other type of recreational form. All those rolling hazards we ride with! Lots of them represent a threat of instant death.

I agree, the one skill that need be practiced relentlessly, especially in urban riding for sure, is situation avoidance. Seeing what is ahead and to the side to predict what might happen and know how to act to avoid it should that possibility occur. It is all about staying out of trouble. Avoidance is 100% better than getting out of a jam. It is like not playing Russian roulette versus taking the bullets out and playing... you might make a mistake.

Do the practice, but learn to Scan, Interpret, Predict, Decide, and Execute. SIPDE, which used to and may still be taught in ATV and motorcycle courses. If you don't ride into the danger you have far less risk.

[Dreaded 1]

I took a "defensive driving" in the military in 1967 and it has served me well over the years driving everything from semi's, motor homes to bikes. It is basically just being aware of everything that is going on around and ahead of you. But in my opinion nothing teaches bike control like dirt riding. Spend a few days riding in soft sand and you will learn how to handle a bike real fast ( wear gear because you will wipe out ). Once bike control becomes second nature you then can concentrate 100 % on the environment around you and react accordingly.

[bush pilot]

Its important to know one's limitations, but as many of us know, exploring those limitations can hurt, or possibly kill you.
Its best to stay well within your limits.

At the Vintage race club we had the 9/10ths rule, where you only to push 9/10ths of your limitations. (both you and the car's)
For motorcycling I bring it down to 8/10ths, where I never try to use more than 8/10ths of me or my bike's abilities.

Learn patience, and ride your own pace.
Be aware how as conditions of the road can change quickly so can your ability to ride be influenced by many variables of emotions, fatigue, general health and how many beers you drank the night before.

Remember you aren't trying to win anything, you just want to stay alive to ride another day!

Dirt bike and track days can help speed up the learning process, but there is no substitute for lots of good old fashioned experience.

[markk53]

Do little number cards pop up on the rider somewhere showing 7/10, 8/10, 9/10, 10/10? Or is this another random shot that has little meaning other than some vague generalization like the 70/30 front to rear braking?


Don't bother, it was rhetorical in nature.