ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-21-2013, 12:22 AM   #1486
CaspianTiger
Adventurer
 
CaspianTiger's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: Arizona Mountains, yes there are Mountains
Oddometer: 40
Eh? Don't countersteer at low speeds.

Counter steering does not apply at speeds below about 18mph. At those lower speeds, one must turn the bars in the direction of the turn (with proper lean angle, initiated by shifting the rider's weight, or leaning the bars). If you counter steer at all, there is not enough centrifugal force to keep the bike upright. The bike will lean in the correct direction but will not be able to maintain balance, without enough speed. If you increase the speed, to compensate, the bike will not be able to maintain the radius of the turn and will stand up or even high side. That's how I understand it anyway.
CaspianTiger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 04:54 AM   #1487
ohgood
Beastly Adventurer
 
ohgood's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: alabama
Oddometer: 2,534
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianTiger View Post
Counter steering does not apply at speeds below about 18mph. At those lower speeds, one must turn the bars in the direction of the turn (with proper lean angle, initiated by shifting the rider's weight, or leaning the bars). If you counter steer at all, there is not enough centrifugal force to keep the bike upright. The bike will lean in the correct direction but will not be able to maintain balance, without enough speed. If you increase the speed, to compensate, the bike will not be able to maintain the radius of the turn and will stand up or even high side. That's how I understand it anyway.
you're wrong , but it's a nice theory
__________________
scrolling through the words to get to the pictures is cool, but i'm really just here for the tracks and waypoints... post some ok ?
ohgood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 06:02 AM   #1488
explain
Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Location: Eastern Europe
Oddometer: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianTiger View Post
Counter steering does not apply at speeds below about 18mph. At those lower speeds, one must turn the bars in the direction of the turn ...
That video was already posted by Motogymkhanaman in the post #1386. Watch front wheel starting from 0:21. Not exactly gymkhana, but still relevant technique



Other interesting videos from that set

explain screwed with this post 10-21-2013 at 08:02 AM
explain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 03:53 PM   #1489
Vulfy OP
Studly Adventurer
 
Vulfy's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: NYC
Oddometer: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohgood View Post
you're wrong , but it's a nice theory
how is he wrong exactly? That's pretty much how I understand it too. If you have a better theory, please share.
Vulfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 02:39 AM   #1490
Harvey Krumpet
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: The Shaky Isles
Oddometer: 887
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulfy View Post
how is he wrong exactly? That's pretty much how I understand it too. If you have a better theory, please share.
We'llllll I was gonna pass comment, too, but then had a wee think. 18mph is 28.8 kph. My G/F was taught how to countersteer between 10 & 30 kph. At the time conscious counter steering was alien to me, embarrassing I know.
My take on it is that as long as you have velocity, throttle open, revs pushing the bike, then counter steering will apply but with a diminishing degree of effectiveness until it tips over into a negative action, going the wrong way. That point is significantly slower than 18mph. The weight of the bike, gravity, & rider input are exacerbated as you get slower. This masks the counter steering but it's still there. The ability of the rider dictates the turn. If smooth & controlled enough on the throttle then a touch of the bars at walking pace will still instigate a turn. Too stiff with falling revs will cause the bike to drop.

I'm not stating fact, just trying to make sense out of the practice & training we have done. Pretty much as long as you have a positive throttle the bike will show response to counter steering but the effect of other factors increases the slower you go.

I use a simple set up for mates keen to improve their skills, an extension of the basic handling test in NZ. The test is a straight line of 20 mtrs with less than half a meter of deviation from center at more or less walking pace. We do it as a slalom at walking pace. After awhile when throttle & rear brake control is comfortable riders counter steer to turn. It's a blind lesson, they are focusing on the bike controls but actually learning how to steer the bike. Weird but effective.

More thoughts please.
Harvey Krumpet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 05:00 AM   #1491
ohgood
Beastly Adventurer
 
ohgood's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: alabama
Oddometer: 2,534
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulfy View Post
how is he wrong exactly? That's pretty much how I understand it too. If you have a better theory, please share.
the riding stuff is more fun than theories....

do a balanced stop, then attempt a full lock left or right uturn .

you'll see what I mean. :)
__________________
scrolling through the words to get to the pictures is cool, but i'm really just here for the tracks and waypoints... post some ok ?
ohgood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 05:04 AM   #1492
ohgood
Beastly Adventurer
 
ohgood's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: alabama
Oddometer: 2,534
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harvey Krumpet View Post
We'llllll I was gonna pass comment, too, but then had a wee think. 18mph is 28.8 kph. My G/F was taught how to countersteer between 10 & 30 kph. At the time conscious counter steering was alien to me, embarrassing I know.
My take on it is that as long as you have velocity, throttle open, revs pushing the bike, then counter steering will apply but with a diminishing degree of effectiveness until it tips over into a negative action, going the wrong way. That point is significantly slower than 18mph. The weight of the bike, gravity, & rider input are exacerbated as you get slower. This masks the counter steering but it's still there. The ability of the rider dictates the turn. If smooth & controlled enough on the throttle then a touch of the bars at walking pace will still instigate a turn. Too stiff with falling revs will cause the bike to drop.

I'm not stating fact, just trying to make sense out of the practice & training we have done. Pretty much as long as you have a positive throttle the bike will show response to counter steering but the effect of other factors increases the slower you go.

I use a simple set up for mates keen to improve their skills, an extension of the basic handling test in NZ. The test is a straight line of 20 mtrs with less than half a meter of deviation from center at more or less walking pace. We do it as a slalom at walking pace. After awhile when throttle & rear brake control is comfortable riders counter steer to turn. It's a blind lesson, they are focusing on the bike controls but actually learning how to steer the bike. Weird but effective.

More thoughts please.
you typed a really good explanation.
nicely too!
__________________
scrolling through the words to get to the pictures is cool, but i'm really just here for the tracks and waypoints... post some ok ?
ohgood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 06:42 AM   #1493
Motogymkhanaman
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Stratford on Avon, England
Oddometer: 211
The recommendation is not to think too much about the steering actions, but to concentrate a bit more on the results.

Everything is made much, much easier if the upper body is completely relaxed so that the bike can respond as quickly as possible to any inputs you may make.
__________________
Dedicated to the wonderful sport of Moto Gymkhana
Motogymkhanaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 06:48 AM   #1494
Jezza
A British Invasion
 
Jezza's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Woodcliff Lake, NJ, USA
Oddometer: 1,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianTiger View Post
Counter steering does not apply at speeds below about 18mph.
My two cents

Two of the (many) factors we as riders exploit to make a bike turn are counter-steering and the gyroscopic effect of turning a fast spinning front wheel.
  1. Counter-steering moves the tires point of contact to one side of the center of mass causing the bike to lean. Counter-steering can be used at all speeds, but becomes much more noticeable as speed increases.
  2. Gyroscopic effect, if you have ever held a bicycle wheel at the axle and spun the tire, you will notice it is very hard to change the angle of the wheel, in fact a force by your hand, on the axle in one direction translates into a directional change in another plane. This gyroscopic effect has no noticeable effect at low speeds, but is more noticeable, the faster the wheel is turning and we can use this to our advantage.
Other factors we as riders exploit are counter-leaning, which is body lean which can be leaning above or below the center of the bike, similar to pressing down on the inside foot peg or not, braking or accelerating in a bend, trailing the rear brake, sitting at the front or rear of the seat, etc etc.

There is also the gyroscopic effect of spinning up the rear wheel, but I would respectfully suggest if your doing this on Moto-Gymkhana you're doing it wrong

The great thing about all this, its all about what works for you and your riding style, on the equipment you're using. Just look at MotoGP, you would think there was nothing you could teach Valentino Rossi or Jorge Lorenzo about going very fast, but the new kid Marky Marquez has applied his personal riding style to his bike and seems unbeatable (when he remembers to pit stop correctly that is)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motogymkhanaman View Post
The recommendation is not to think too much about the steering actions....
I agree with Motogymkhanaman, although I know some of the theory, all I think about when riding is the difference between what I want the bike to do and what I think it wants to do. If there is a gap between those two points, I spend a little time between runs thinking about technique, then I put that to the back of my mind and hope it mysteriously works for me during my next run.
__________________
Four Continents ridden, three to go
www.moto-gym.com

Jezza screwed with this post 10-22-2013 at 07:21 AM
Jezza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 07:57 AM   #1495
Motogymkhanaman
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Stratford on Avon, England
Oddometer: 211
A lot of what we learn in Moto Gymkhana is taken in via the subconscious and so it's very difficult for us to rationalise what's actually happening (we have learnt it without really learning it) so it's not easy to explain the actions we are taking.

In Japan they realise this problem so they do not bother 'teaching' riding techniques but instead rely on the tail chase to bring slower riders up to speed. "Follow me and do what I do" is the main instruction and from that they can teach the student a vast number of techniques in a very short space of time.
__________________
Dedicated to the wonderful sport of Moto Gymkhana
Motogymkhanaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 09:03 PM   #1496
dredman
Dirt Disciple
 
dredman's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: Hoover Al
Oddometer: 109
Eek

Looks kinda slow in here

if you are anywhere near Alabama on Sunday, come by and see us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43WeRhPFCN8


Of course do NOT miss the BIG EVENT next month in Montevallo, should be our biggest event yet


http://bamarides.com/ride/events/fal...lo-november-9/
dredman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 11:26 PM   #1497
Harvey Krumpet
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: The Shaky Isles
Oddometer: 887
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motogymkhanaman View Post
A lot of what we learn in Moto Gymkhana is taken in via the subconscious and so it's very difficult for us to rationalise what's actually happening (we have learnt it without really learning it) so it's not easy to explain the actions we are taking.

In Japan they realise this problem so they do not bother 'teaching' riding techniques but instead rely on the tail chase to bring slower riders up to speed. "Follow me and do what I do" is the main instruction and from that they can teach the student a vast number of techniques in a very short space of time.
My dilemma when the G/F got her bike, somehow I knew it but could not teach it.
Our instructor took her through a series of exercises, each with a specific focus but really teaching her something else sub consciously. Focusing to much on a technique can make it difficult to learn but if you are put into a situation where you have to use that technique but are thinking about something else it just seems to happen naturally & quickly.

My G/F initially kept stalling the bike, she was pulling away with her head down, looking just ahead of the front wheel. I knew she could use the clutch & throttle so something else was holding her back. Where you look, you go, in her case about a foot. So I got her to look at stuff in the distance & basically said "ride over there". Boof. Problem solved. No more stalling.
Brains are funny things.
Harvey Krumpet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 03:25 AM   #1498
Motogymkhanaman
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Stratford on Avon, England
Oddometer: 211
Another fantastic video of Ohtaki-san attacking a course. Lots of interesting tips and techniques can be gained from watching this clip very closely.

__________________
Dedicated to the wonderful sport of Moto Gymkhana
Motogymkhanaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 07:36 AM   #1499
mitch96
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Location: Hollyweird Florida
Oddometer: 136
Lots of interesting tips and techniques can be gained from watching this clip very closely.

Like the one finger on the brake....
__________________
I'm doing so good, I can't stand it!!
mitch96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 08:05 AM   #1500
Motogymkhanaman
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Stratford on Avon, England
Oddometer: 211
Notice that it's the middle finger he's using.
__________________
Dedicated to the wonderful sport of Moto Gymkhana
Motogymkhanaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 02:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014