Tips on hard braking practice?

[tkent02]

Originally Posted by PSYCHO II

I thought that is exactly what I was saying. If you keep braking hard and lean the bike without releasing pressure on the front brake what would you say would be the result?

No, that's what I was saying. You were saying if I brake hard in a curve I will crash.

[dwoodward]

Originally Posted by tkent02

No, that's what I was saying. You were saying if I brake hard in a curve I will crash.

OK, maybe you're not in agreement.

You can brake fairly hard and hold your line. The consequences- for us mortals- of overbraking are immediate and likely to be painful, and it's not recommended if you can avoid it.

Just to I've seen ABS activation while leaned over fairly hard...

[PSYCHO II]

Originally Posted by dwoodward

OK, maybe you're not in agreement.

You can brake fairly hard and hold your line. The consequences- for us mortals- of overbraking are immediate and likely to be painful, and it's not recommended if you can avoid it.

Just to I've seen ABS activation while leaned over fairly hard...

Well actually I think we are in agreement (with tkent02 that is) for what I was saying is brake as hard as you can in a straight line and without changing your braking pressure then attempt a countersteering action and see what happens. An experienced rider releases the pressure for they know what the result would be.

[tkent02]

Originally Posted by dwoodward

Just to I've seen ABS activation while leaned over fairly hard...

I have been wondering how this would work, did it start to step out and come back? Rear or front? What was the bike and was the pavement wet?

[DAKEZ]

When are we going to get to the catching on fire part?

[dwoodward]

Originally Posted by tkent02

I have been wondering how this would work, did it start to step out and come back? Rear or front? What was the bike and was the pavement wet?

Dry pavement, closed course (so it doesn't really count, right?) R1200RT-P. I only saw/heard one cycle, and barely at that, the bike just twitched.

DISCLAIMER: That is not to say one should rely on ABS to prevent you from falling down if you have to brake while turning.

But it turned out that you can brake harder than you think in a corner. Smooth counts (DUH), and not as hard as in a straight line- but harder than you might think.

So, you're both right. If you apply max braking in a straight line and try to turn, fall down go ouch. But you can brake fairly hard.

Having to do so means you screwed the pooch on setting entrance speed, but that's another topic.

[markk53]

Originally Posted by dbuzz

um ... am I right in assuming this is on the street? If so how come you are misjudging your entry speed so often plus frequently outriding your sight lines?

I missed the part of saying I was misjudging my cornering speed. Maybe you're just deluded or something. Braking mid-corner when there is a reason that is not visible on entry is not misjudging, it is avoiding a situation, but of course since you'd simply run into whatever it was or else run off the road rather than brake while in a turn, there is no use in telling you this.

I will tell you that as I actually think about it, I'm finding I actually do continue my braking or even increase it when actually leaning into a turn at times. It just all depends on what, when, where, and how. After all, I'm not always at the limits of traction. Just something that I apparently can do that you can not. A skill developed over about 40 years and a lot of miles in a lot of conditions. The past fourteen years have included several thousand miles of riding on dirt/gravel and rough pavement with the dual sports.

As a few knowledgable riders here have said, it is not something one learns immediately or in some MSF class, it is slowly learned if a rider actually works on their skills, pushing the envelope ever so slightly again and again. It's not about pushing to the point of crashing, it is about pushing to the point of knowing how to do something that may be of great value some day. I have run into blind decreasing radius turns on unfamiliar roads a number of times while traveling at a reasonable rate of speed. Rather than sit up and go into the other lane or run off the road, I'd learned I could actually brake, even rather hard considering conditions, and hold my line through the corner. Maybe that doesn't seem of value to some here, but it certainly has paid off for me.

Simply starting out with light braking, deceleration, acceleration, turning in, and turning out on a corner with good surface, good line of sight, and at reasonable speed is the perfect practice. As skills develop a rider finds it easier to brake more, move about more easily, accelerate, or decelerate in a corner. That develops a skill that makes it a lot harder to actually be into a corner too hot. When you know how to trail brake or actually intentionally brake while cornering, it comes in handy some times.

But for those of you who do not believe this is possible, make sure you do all your braking before you get to a corner, otherwise you're gonna get hurt.

[markk53]

Originally Posted by dbuzz

I'm not really into guns but I believe it is inadvisable to carry them around with the finger on the trigger? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

I'm also curious as to why one would feel the need to be hanging on tight while riding the bitumen ... could that be a sign of anxiety or something? as in feeling too insecure to let go of the bars? I can figure it may be necessary on the dirt with rocks, ruts and shit interfering with the front wheel.

I don't think anyone here is saying you can never use less than all fingers when braking, depending on the chosen technique for the situation, but the message I read is that for quick stop practice (as in gotta stop yesterday) then it's best to use all available finger tips to get the job done.

Out on the race track seems to be different as they don't seem to feel the need too often to come to a complete stop because a truck just turned in front of them. Besides it would probably affect their lap times

Nah, they don't usually come to a complete stop just anchor it down heavy when there is a rider who's fallen in front of them or maybe seeing some fluid on the track that need be avoided when someone's blown an engine. Believe it or not, one track in Texas used to have Armadillos riders had to avoid during endurance races.

But then again I'm not quite clear on why you would come to a complete stop every time someone turns in front of you or cuts you off... wouldn't that be a bit dangerous on a road where the traffic behind you is closing in at about 50 mph or more?

I can not remember the last time I came to a complete stop due to someone doing something like that. Slowed a lot, sure, but not stopped. Of course I also don't remember the last time I had a situation like that where I actually HAD to panic.

Seems I've developed a skill for observing what is and what could happen in front of me and have been ready to take action before it is necessary. Try it some time you may find the panic situations are reduced greatly. I have. I find I'm actually braking harder in practice/play and also when running some of our favorite roads than I actually have had to do in traffic for the past several years.

[markk53]

Originally Posted by PSYCHO II

I thought that is exactly what I was saying. If you keep braking hard and lean the bike without releasing pressure on the front brake what would you say would be the result?

So, if you brake really hard in a straight line and start to lock up the brakes are you going to keep them locked up until you fall over?

Same thing with braking in a corner. A rider who knows how due to practicing and learning will not be stupid enough to stay full on with brake pressure when leaning into a turn. That is not saying they will not be braking fairly hard. It just means they know enough to work within the traction limits of the tire.

Again, braking hard is a relative term. Braking hard on a slick concrete surface is totally different from that of an old asphalt surface. Same with wet versus dry and cold versus warm. It is entirely relative to what is possibly maximum traction. Same with cornering under braking. Those who play and learn, then practice can have a good grasp of this relative nature.

Just because you and others do not does not make it impossible or wrong.

[PSYCHO II]

Originally Posted by DAKEZ

When are we going to get to the catching on fire part?

And by popular demand....

[dbuzz]

Originally Posted by markk53

Nah, they don't usually come to a complete stop just anchor it down heavy when there is a rider who's fallen in front of them or maybe seeing some fluid on the track that need be avoided when someone's blown an engine. Believe it or not, one track in Texas used to have Armadillos riders had to avoid during endurance races.

But then again I'm not quite clear on why you would come to a complete stop every time someone turns in front of you or cuts you off... wouldn't that be a bit dangerous on a road where the traffic behind you is closing in at about 50 mph or more?

I can not remember the last time I came to a complete stop due to someone doing something like that. Slowed a lot, sure, but not stopped. Of course I also don't remember the last time I had a situation like that where I actually HAD to panic.

Seems I've developed a skill for observing what is and what could happen in front of me and have been ready to take action before it is necessary. Try it some time you may find the panic situations are reduced greatly. I have. I find I'm actually braking harder in practice/play and also when running some of our favorite roads than I actually have had to do in traffic for the past several years.

I always find it wise not to count my chickens

[filmfan]

I absolutely get don't brake while cornering, and I avoid it whenever possible.
But, how else do you negotiate a clover leaf freeway offramp with a stop sign at the end of the curved section?
Slow to 10-15 mph before doing the curve?

I have one of those I ride fairly routinely. There is a little space to stand the bike up before getting to the intersection, but not very much. Even at the posted speed (25) you need to be on the brakes while leaned, or else practice a panic stop upright.

[markk53]

Originally Posted by filmfan

I absolutely get don't brake while cornering, and I avoid it whenever possible.
But, how else do you negotiate a clover leaf freeway offramp with a stop sign at the end of the curved section?
Slow to 10-15 mph before doing the curve?

I have one of those I ride fairly routinely. There is a little space to stand the bike up before getting to the intersection, but not very much. Even at the posted speed (25) you need to be on the brakes while leaned, or else practice a panic stop upright.

You learn how to brake while leaning into a corner. Pretty simple now, isn't it.

Realize "do not brake while turning" is a rule of thumb for new riders and those with lesser skills, not a law of physics. The physics law is do not exceed the available traction from your front tire in your combination of braking and cornering. The less traction used by cornering the more available for braking and vice versa. Easing into learning to brake while cornering is the obvious thing to do of course, much like anything else you learn to do. It's just using one's brain for more than filling a helmet. You obviously have some of the skill already with having to use brakes on an on-ramp.

[markk53]

Originally Posted by dbuzz

I always find it wise not to count my chickens

You mean along with not learning how to brake while leaning into a corner?


By the way, the implication is I apparently am riding safely enough to not have to brake heavily for idiots who turn left in front of me, etc.

[tkent02]

Originally Posted by _cy_

much better to learn ONE method that works on all bikes.
similar to why I don't like ABS ... In clutch situations, muscle memory takes over

One method doesn't work on all bikes, why should you pretend it does?
Ride the bike you're on.