Tips on hard braking practice?

[thistle66]

I like this thread. It's given me a few great new expressions to use.

"Fuck A Bunch Of Rhubarb". and "The Bullshit Threshold" spring to mind. Good work; keep it up lads!

[Harvey Krumpet]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

using 4 fingers is NOT a better technique.



yeah, all those world class racers (of all sorts)...and trials riders...who use 2 fingers--or even 1 finger--are just fantasizing that they are world-class riders with amazingly fine control over their machines.

Check out Rossi in the Kevin Schwantz braking clip... f f f f f four fingers. Schwantz use's one, though.

I wonder how many fingers he use's on the Ducati, maybe both hands..?

[dbuzz]

Originally Posted by Harvey Krumpet

Check out Rossi in the Kevin Schwantz braking clip... f f f f f four fingers. Schwantz use's one, though.

I wonder how many fingers he use's on the Ducati, maybe both hands..?

What about all those people who put both feet out to stop and it's not just pirates either so many of them do it that must be the better technique.

[Harvey Krumpet]

Originally Posted by dbuzz

What about all those people who put both feet out to stop and it's not just pirates either so many of them do it that must be the better technique.

I only paddle to check grip.....

[Tripped1]

Originally Posted by PSYCHO II

Exactly that is it.... it is not what you feel but what the bike requires to be controlled. Think of it like playing the piano or more precisely like a guitar. The base of the thumb is locked in on both handlebars and that is where you feel the steering inputs. The fingers are now free to all apply if necessary. Now just like a piano or guitar the tips of all four fingers are ready to play the tune of braking. You don't need extra grip as you are just wasting feel and control by holding on too tightly. Good posture means that the arms are not supporting your body and the steering is able to be felt and responded too accordingly.

The feeling is weird to start with but as the control improves the brain adapts to the better technique. Those who resist live in their fantasy world forever.

Its more about reaction time, I picked up that technique after I started riding on the street, the fingers are there, I ALWAYS cover the levers, both side. When I was a kid running around with a dirt bike, I didn't cover (that I can remember it was 18+ years ago.) you employ the brakes differently.

It feels extremely awkward pulling my fingers on and off the lever.

Its not posture or grip in my case, I'm usually pretty loose on the bike, the only time I'm on my wrists is if I'm big time on the anchors (with my two fingers of doom).

Originally Posted by shaddix

Intuitively it makes sense to me that four fingers should be more accurate than 2, the less strength you have to exhibit, the more fine your control should be. That said, I use two because that's what that NZ logo has....

The counter of course being that if I can pull the rear wheel off the ground with one finger....why would I need four.

[PSYCHO II]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

using 4 fingers is NOT a better technique.

Yes I stand corrected not better technique..... BEST technique for stopping quickly.

[PSYCHO II]

Originally Posted by Tripped1

It feels extremely awkward pulling my fingers on and off the lever.

Trying something new always feels awkward. For those who believe they can achieve nothing more then it will become a self fulfilling prophesy. Such is life.

[_cy_]

four fingers are a requirement on older bikes
early disc brakes had completely different brake leverage
vs modern bikes with MUCH better brakes and higher braking ratio

much better to learn ONE method that works on all bikes.
similar to why I don't like ABS ... In clutch situations, muscle memory takes over

if one changes bikes .. old muscle memories is how you will react in clutch situations

[Maverick75]

Originally Posted by dbuzz

Liked that ad did you Aussie govco departments love the disaster story style.

Here is a recent ad from the Victorian govco ... it has caused quite a lot of spirited discussion across the interwebs. The second vid is the same visuals with an alternative voice over that was put together by concerned motorcyclists.

Holy crap, I can't believe the VIC gov is using this tactic. They're essentially absolving the hypothetical careless driver from responsibility and laying it all on the rider for being 8kmph over the limit. This speed kills shit has gone far enough. After all, it's pretty hard to fine people for stupidity right? "I'm sorry occifer, I didn't see it". "It's ok ma'am, it was just a motorcyclist."

BTW, I'm a 20-odd year rider who uses four fingers on the brake and has no worries with feathering or blipping while doing so. I believe it comes down to the individual. But practice with emergency braking definitely makes perfect.

Great thread too. I have learned a lot.

[shaddix]

Originally Posted by Tripped1

The counter of course being that if I can pull the rear wheel off the ground with one finger....why would I need four.

I think you misread my post, I'm saying that the less intensity that you have to use to pull the lever, the more accurate you will be with the modulation. So it would make sense to me that using four fingers would be more accurate since its easier for all four to squeeze the lever than just two or one.

[dbuzz]

Originally Posted by Maverick75

Holy crap, I can't believe the VIC gov is using this tactic. They're essentially absolving the hypothetical careless driver from responsibility and laying it all on the rider for being 8kmph over the limit. This speed kills shit has gone far enough. After all, it's pretty hard to fine people for stupidity right? "I'm sorry occifer, I didn't see it". "It's ok ma'am, it was just a motorcyclist."

BTW, I'm a 20-odd year rider who uses four fingers on the brake and has no worries with feathering or blipping while doing so. I believe it comes down to the individual. But practice with emergency braking definitely makes perfect.

Great thread too. I have learned a lot.

TAC love shock and awe tactics ... they have used it quite successfully over the years. The ad sure has generated a lot of discussion around the traps ... in particular about the poor braking technique ... much of the discussings have raised valid points and have highlighted the need for training etc ... so in a weird twisted way maybe it has achieved something perhaps this was their nefarious plot

[markk53]

Originally Posted by shaddix

Help me with this, when I took my BRC they told me if I braked hard in the corner it would cause my front tire to wash out unless I stood the bike up first.

It's called a generalization, usually given to those who aren't ready to understand a full explanation. Trying to teach a new rider to use the front brake at all is a challenge, I am sure. To try to teach all the intricacies of braking in a corner could take an entire weekend and still not get done.

As you ride more and learn more (hopefully, apparently some here quit learning) you discover you CAN brake in a corner even when leaning. It is all about how much traction the tire is using up in leaning in a corner and how much traction the braking will take. If the cornering and braking exceed the traction available you wash the front or rear out (whichever you are using). If not, you slow up. Usually braking in a corner will tend to want to stand the bike up. You control that though, allowing it to come up or not.

If you really came into a corner hot you may stand the bike up and hammer the brakes hard to get it down to a controlable speed. I've had to do that before. You get the speed at a workable level then lean in again and accelerate. You see it all the time in races where a rider goes in a bit hot and can not lean the bike in quickly, they go high and then back into the corner or they take the run off if it is there.

It's all about experience and learning step by step.

[markk53]

Originally Posted by dbuzz

I'm really surprised that so many people are so scared in corners that they are covering their front brakes.

Not scared, just ready. I ride fairly briskly (to put it a bit mildly) much of the time. I have my brake covered because there may be a need for it (blind decreasing radius turn) or I may just be taking off a bit of speed as I go into the corner after initiating the lean. Nothing to do with fear.

[markk53]

Originally Posted by PSYCHO II

Exactly and the OP's question was on hard braking and obstacle avoidance. So if you are still hard on the front brake and steer the bike there will be only one result.

So obviously the OP should do what I have said before, become observant enough to NOT get into a bad situation - aka avoidance, the best kind. But learn hard braking just to have all bases covered.

[markk53]

Originally Posted by LuciferMutt

Difference between "while turning" and "while the front wheel/bars are turned."

Yes you can (trail)brake while cornering, but using much front brake (if any on some very sporty machines) with the front wheel actually turned is usually kind of a bad idea and tends to put you and the bike down. I'm talking about like in a parking lot and you are doing a sharp/U turn...

Again, it depends on how hard one is cornering. It is all about traction available from the front tire. Racers are at the limits and maybe a touch of the brake will put them down. Street riders seldom are anywhere near that. Fact is I can not remember anyone I know actually locking a brake or washing the front end out due to the brake on the street. I've had a few wash out a front wheel hitting some junk (no brakes involved) but not actually while braking in the turn and I know they all do brake in a turn as needed. It's about not being at 100%, understanding tire grip and road surfaces, and practice of course.

I was out riding to school and running some errands. When I thought about it, I quite frequently may be using some front brake while leaning in or in the middle of corners for any number of reasons and it all happens pretty much as an automatic action. Done it enough I pretty much know what I'm doing. I also realized I braked one time mid turn and then backed off at one point due to some light dirt/gravel on the road. I wanted to slow a bit, but clearly not have brakes on in the debris. Automatic.