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Old 07-31-2012, 12:05 PM   #46
hexnut
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I have never had that problem . It takes gas a while to go bad. You can use a gas stabilizer like startron..

http://mystarbrite.com/startron//con...3/123/lang,en/

I usually use Shell gas and have no problems. Some people like Seafoam. I hear it works pretty good.

People always say its the 10% ethanol in gas thats the problem. I have a Cub Cadet riding mower thats 17 years old. I have always used gas in it with 10% ethanol. I let it set every winter with a little gas stabilizer in the tank and it starts up every spring.

I was having problems this year and took the carb off. It was clean as a pin. No varnish or build up what so ever. It turned out to be the fuel pump So you may have other problems with that engine..
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:35 PM   #47
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The gas was bought recently, fresh, from Costco. I buy 5 gallons at a time to use on other engines around my work.

I had Seafoam mixed in on the last batch ( 1 oz. to a gallon) as per its bottle. Seafoam was no match for Riva, I guess. It did a little or nothing at all as I can see. Also, I used it as a cleaner for the cylinder that needed new exhaust valve on this Riva. Seafoam didn't work as "instant cleaner" as the bottle said. Crap.

The more I see the photo the more I think it is blow-by. But why??? Running on Avgas may give me the answer,,,,,, I hope. If it is blow-by, I would run on regular gas and leave that hose disconnected. Couples of short run on the airport, the scooter is running like it should,,,,. So far.
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:36 PM   #48
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The crankcase is vented to the air intake, so blow by may very well cause that issue. Single cylinder and 360 degree twins inherently have a major crankcase breathing issue due to the fact the cylinder displacement needs to be drawn in and out with every revolution. That is part of the reason singles and many british twins were filthy with oil and crud when they were atmosphere vented. any cylinder leakage into the crankcase will just amplify the problem. A sticking carb piston could certainly cause a bogging issue. Do you have a marina nearby? Their fuel is cheaper than Avgas.
Now I'm wondering about breather crud and E10. Maybe that's an issue. I will look at mine today a bit closer. There were two instances yesterday where the enge required a few seconds of idle time to run well. If a similar situation exists, I will install a carb cleaner port into the intake just upstream of the carb. I may even make it accessible without removing any side covers.
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:55 PM   #49
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Yea, there are quite a few marinas around here.
It just downed on me,,,, Do you think this crud is due to MMO in engine oil manifesting in breather tube????
My scooter buddy had recommended using that stuff in crankcase so it will act as slow cleaner since the scooter has more than 20K miles. He had me putting 3 oz in 1 qt engine oil.
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Old 07-31-2012, 10:56 PM   #50
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MMO in the engine oil? I've used it for many things, even for freeing old frozen engines, but I've never actually put a load on anything with the stuff in the oil. Same for Rislone. It may be doing a great job of de-crudding your engine if it is dirty. That may result in slime that gets picked up by the breather and deposits itself in the carb. The "dry" side of your slide is crusty while the area with fuel is slimy.
Tonight, after two consecutive days with the big bog, I took the air box off and looked at my carb. It was nearly as clean as when it was apart in June. The piston moved freely and no stiffness in the butterfly motion. I started it and the piston moved up and down with the cadence of the idle. I sprayed some carb cleaner in it anyway. The whole airbox was cleaned as there was a bit of oil residue from the breather and some of the oil from the air filter had deposited along the bottom. After cleaning the filter element, reoiling with K&N filter oil, (That's where I should have used MMO) and reassembling I went for a 26 mile ride. About 6 or 7 minutes into the ride....BOG! At 50+ mph the power went to crap and I had to let it idle for about ten seconds to clear up. After that the bog was slight but still there till I let it idle for another minute. I then accelerated to 55 and no bog was present. A bit of a lean surge at part throttle 35-47 mph, but at near WOT in acceleration, nothing. Most of the ride was 40+ mph.
I wonder if the infamous start enrichment device is at fault giving a rich mixture under certain conditions. It's not certain that the 30 - 50 mph light throttle surge and the bigger bog that nearly stalls the engine are even related.
The symptoms my bike suffers seem to be less intense that those with your bike. The odo just clicked over 10K tonight, so it may be earlier in the development of the issues. In the 1200 miles I've put on it in under two months, there have been a dozen or more total power losses and an ongoing surge at the described speeds. Some weeks have been totally problem free. Shell, Mobile, Marathon and Phillips high grade fuels have been used. No fuel has been used without an issue occurring.
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Old 08-01-2012, 01:05 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hayasakiman View Post
See the photos below. This carburetor was cleaned in cleaning tank about 275 miles ago in last month...

... Or, is this because of excess blow by with this engine that causing the sludge build up?
By the looks of your pics, your problems are not at all fuel related - fuel will not cause sludge buildup like that, in that short a period of time. If anything, it's piston ring blow-by (oil) being fed to the carb inlet via the crankcase breather hose, or a very worn inlet valve stem oil seal/guide. Time for a light top-end overhaul, maybe?

Some clues may be found by disconnecting the crankcase breather hose from the airbox (making sure to plug the airbox opening), and with the engine good and hot, see what kind of vapors or oil spits/drips (if any) come out from the breather hose. Maybe zip tie it somewhere to the bike like that, with a catch can (beer can) on the end to see what collects after a ride.

Was that sludge residue a sticky varnish, or was it oily? If oily, I'd think fuel would help clean it off, if anything - given gasoline's solvent properties and all.

I personally would not run Avgas - it's chock full of TEL (Lead) - either the 80/87 octane (red) or 100 octane "Low Lead" (blue). The lead fouls plugs, and can form some nasty, thick goo in certain motor oils (especially synthetics). If your vehicles have catalytic converters, they'll be quickly ruined by the TEL deposits, too.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:42 AM   #52
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The scooter is not equipped with cat converter so it can run on Avgas with no problem.

Lead fouling usually happens on lower plugs on HO engines. Plug firing ends are facing upwards. Since this plug on the scooter is facing downward, I am hoping lead foul is less likely. I am hoping the use of Avgas is temporary thing any ways. I can not feeding Avgas for a long time.

The engine oil I am using on this scooter is Aeroshell 100 Plus, designed to work on aircraft engines. Since the scooter is air cooled engine, I thought "why not?". I had used Aeroshell synthetic blend before this and this oil started to leak from crankcase lower seam. With 100 Plus, the leak had stopped. The oil is SAE 50 single grade. It could be too thick for cold start up but I am in South Florida, it's Summer time, used on high mileage engine. I thought "why not?".

The sludge is like semi hardened glue, very sticky. That is why I thought this is due to low quality fuel varnish build up. I first sprayed "carb + choke cleaner" to clean but it was not effective on this goo. So I used chem-dip and it worked.

I haven't used the scooter since my last post.
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:08 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheap bastard View Post
MMO in the engine oil? I've used it for many things, even for freeing old frozen engines, but I've never actually put a load on anything with the stuff in the oil. Same for Rislone. It may be doing a great job of de-crudding your engine if it is dirty. That may result in slime that gets picked up by the breather and deposits itself in the carb. The "dry" side of your slide is crusty while the area with fuel is slimy.
Tonight, after two consecutive days with the big bog, I took the air box off and looked at my carb. It was nearly as clean as when it was apart in June. The piston moved freely and no stiffness in the butterfly motion. I started it and the piston moved up and down with the cadence of the idle. I sprayed some carb cleaner in it anyway. The whole airbox was cleaned as there was a bit of oil residue from the breather and some of the oil from the air filter had deposited along the bottom. After cleaning the filter element, reoiling with K&N filter oil, (That's where I should have used MMO) and reassembling I went for a 26 mile ride. About 6 or 7 minutes into the ride....BOG! At 50+ mph the power went to crap and I had to let it idle for about ten seconds to clear up. After that the bog was slight but still there till I let it idle for another minute. I then accelerated to 55 and no bog was present. A bit of a lean surge at part throttle 35-47 mph, but at near WOT in acceleration, nothing. Most of the ride was 40+ mph.
I wonder if the infamous start enrichment device is at fault giving a rich mixture under certain conditions. It's not certain that the 30 - 50 mph light throttle surge and the bigger bog that nearly stalls the engine are even related.
The symptoms my bike suffers seem to be less intense that those with your bike. The odo just clicked over 10K tonight, so it may be earlier in the development of the issues. In the 1200 miles I've put on it in under two months, there have been a dozen or more total power losses and an ongoing surge at the described speeds. Some weeks have been totally problem free. Shell, Mobile, Marathon and Phillips high grade fuels have been used. No fuel has been used without an issue occurring.
I had that big bog couple of times before. The very first one was on the night I was heading home. The engine died and I thought it was due to over heating. At that time, the starter clutch was slipping so I could not get it restarted. I ended up pushing the scooter for about one hour to eventual cool off and restart. After this restart, the engine lost power a few times but I was able to keep the engine running at idle speed. I was able to arrive back to where I started that night.

This incident lead me to think a while. My own conclusion was "fuel starvation" after seeing air in fuel feed line. Current set up for fuel feed is "no diaphragm OE fuel valve" feeding fuel into a "hardware store bought valve", then it goes to carburetor. There's no air in fuel feed. There's no big power loss from high speed. With this set up, I was loosing power on acceleration after coming to a stop from relatively high speed, like going over a speed bumps. If I come to this stop slowly, the engine didn't loose power. It became somewhat predictable that I was able to use the scooter for a few days, till this time around with sticky sludge build up issue.
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Old 08-01-2012, 05:19 AM   #54
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Well, since my last post, I went out for my test loop run. The engine starts just fine but throttle is hard to wist. It was free to move yesterday. I think it was free to move since it had cleaning solvent still there but not this morning. Since it is hard to twist and return spring is having hard time to close the butterfly valve, deceleration is not happening when I need it. I need to remove the carb and clean it again. I was going to do that anyways but not this soon. Other than this, the engine runs good.

I should be able to see if there's any sludge build up even though it has less than 20 miles since yesterday.
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:04 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hayasakiman View Post

The sludge is like semi hardened glue, very sticky. That is why I thought this is due to low quality fuel varnish build up. I first sprayed "carb + choke cleaner" to clean but it was not effective on this goo. So I used chem-dip and it worked.
That's just too bizarre... I hate to say it, but I have to wonder if someone purposely dumped something bad (like sugar) in your gas tank. Neither oil or fuel (even real mediocre pump gas - and especially not Avgas) should leave sticky goo like that. Wonder if water dissolves the stuff...

What's it taste like? (kidding! )
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:47 AM   #56
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Well, I wanted to use the scoot for lunch break, so I took the carb off and cleaned it. This time I took off the butterfly and shaft from the carb. Used q-tips and chem-dip to clean copper bushings while the shaft and butterfly are in the tank.

Both inlet and outlet of the carb are free of any sludge. I felt wee bit of stickiness but that's about it.

Put everything back together and had a short run. The engine has good power so I am ready for a real test ride during this break time.

The scooter is hangared all the time. I am the only one who has the access to the hangar. When I use it to go home, it is parked in the fenced patio with a lock on the gate. It is very unlikely that anyone would tamper with my scooter.

I was kind of hoping to see some sludge build up when I took the carb off because I could blame it on something else other than fuel. I shall find out in 200 miles time for sure.

Oh, it was sweet as molasses. Not!!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++

Update:
Went out for a ride during the break. Rode for 1/2 hour on streets averaging 45 to 50 MPH with occasional stop with traffic lights. NO issues with running of engine and power delivery except faint surge between 35 to 45 MPH. I guess this is normal for this scooter to have this kind of surge. For me, 35 to 45 is transient speed and not constant speed. It does not bother me enough to mess with carburetor to fine tune it. Even if I tried, I may not be able to get it right anyways. Certain carbs have flat spot when jets used changes as RPM or load changes.

It's all good for now. Till the sludge builds up again.

hayasakiman screwed with this post 08-03-2012 at 06:35 AM Reason: Update
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:01 PM   #57
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I now have racked up 300 miles since last carburetor cleaning due to gunk build up. All these miles are on AVgas and every mile was fun ride. There's no bogging from high speed. There's no bogging upon slow down and immediate acceleration. Removed the carburetor for photo.







As you can see there's no gunk. All I see is blue stain from AVgas seeping from the bowl, to which I have new gasket ordered. Stickiness I felt the last time I had the carburetor removed for butterfly shaft cleaning is non existent. I think AVgas cleaned it really well.

To confirm the gunk build up I had before was from the auto gas, I am going to use the same tank of gas I bought last month. I just have to keep sharp on engine performance that any sign of decrease in it, I will stop riding to check on carburetor condition.

The battle continues,,,,
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:32 PM   #58
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Cry Shredded Drive belt

I was on my way to home and it happened. Lost drive. The belt is shredded. I was doing 45-50 mph at that time. Luckily it was close to my customer/friend's house when it happened. Pushed the scoot to his house and he gave me the ride home.

When I replaced the starter clutch, the belt didn't look worn or cracked at all. So, this came to me as a surprise that it broke. I guess I should have changed it since I had it in stock when I did the clutch.
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Old 08-18-2012, 10:00 AM   #59
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8/17/2012 @14079.1 Belt broke

This morning I had the belt, P/N 50W-17641-01-**00, changed. When I was changing it, I noticed the primary fixed sheave is warped. It is likely the broken belt caused this warpage because I didn't see this when I was changing starter clutch.



After the belt was changed, the engine was started. But for some reason, it cranked so slow that I thought the battery is drained. Previous starts were so effort less that the starter button was touched and engine had started. Did the broken belt cause this?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++

((UPDATE))

After I made the post above, I wanted to know that sheave is warped for sure. Also wanted to know why the starter motor is cranking so slow now. So, I took off the side cover and removed the sheave. As it turned out, it is not warped. It was due to the way it looked when I was hastily working in his hangar.
Also, slow turning of starter motor is from broken belt bits stuffed in behind of inner sheave, I think. After removing the bits, the engine turns as normal as before.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++

((UPDATE))

Had a closer look at the broken belt. There are sections that have cracks on the valleys and there are sections without. I should have been more careful inspecting the belt before.

hayasakiman screwed with this post 08-30-2012 at 09:49 PM Reason: update
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:10 PM   #60
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11/4/2012 @14649.0 Starter clutch not engaging

My newly installed starter clutch refused to engage after 1165 miles. Removed the assembly and cleaned. The first time, I used a moly assembly grease. But this time I lubed it an engine assembly lube I learned in school (ERAU) many years ago. Mixture of engine oil and STP, 50/50. The manual calls for molybdenum disulfide oil. I have no clue what this is. The manual usually calls for Yamalube or other brand and it is easy to locate them. I am guessing this lube is similar to Yamalube. But it is only a guess, since I don't have Yamalube in stock. So hopefully, my 50/50 lube will last more than the moly grease did the last time.

Since the starter motor sounds like it is having problem turning, I cleaned connections and such. On top of that, I decided to clean contacts of starter solenoid. Started to messing with it and I messed it up really good. So it is IN-OP.

I remembered that there's a battery solenoid in my hangar, removed from a Cessna with 12VDC system.


So I installed the solenoid as above. Now the starter motor does not labor to crank.

hayasakiman screwed with this post 11-04-2012 at 06:15 PM
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