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Old 05-26-2012, 09:12 AM   #76
kirb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocker59 View Post
I love it when people who buy motorcycles that will see, at most, a few thousand miles per year worry about valve adjustment costs!

Ducati continually pushes the intervals out. The 750F1 of the 1980s was like 1,500 miles. What is Ducati advertising now? 15,000?

I mainly ride Guzzis, and thier screw adjusters are simple and easy to check/adjust. The very definition of "Ease of Maintenance".
The air cooled ducati's were around 3500 miles in the late 90's IIRC. That would have been 2 adjustments per year for me and even more now. I moved on to another brand as Ducati only had a dealer 4 hours from me back then. I would do all the work now, but the point is they lost a sale from me then (and I haven't owned a ducati since)

The TRUE definition of ease of maintenance is the Buell's (HD's) hydro adjusters. You never have to crack the engine open...ever...for quite a long time (maybe at 50k to change the primary chain adj shoe). Fluid changes and belt check is about it. I kept my M2 for 11 years and it is by far the easiest to own bike I've ever came across.

I have a Griso now and LOVE the ease of working on it. Almost as good as the Buell, but still better than most bikes.
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Old 05-26-2012, 03:02 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by JamesG View Post
Totally different character and feel. The only thing they have in common is that both are Italian companies (oh and they share generators ).
And they're both 90 degree V-twins (all Guzzis are, and I guess, most Ducs are, but I do know of at least one V4 from them).
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Old 05-26-2012, 03:04 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by kraven View Post
Honestly, I don't think it makes much difference. IF you appreciate Italic design and execution, they both converge on that point of artful understanding.
Guzzi people get labeled as weirdos by the mainstream of motorcycling, but really so do the Ducati fanciers. Both camps try to explain the mystique of their brand to people til it exhausts them.

You can love both. You probably already do. It's okay.

Speed limit tooling, they both do the same thing in singing a unique song and portaging you across mother Earth.

If it were me, I'd take the plunge and buy the Guzzi, just to go full on weirdo for once.
The V7 is likely more fun closer to the speed limit than the larger Guzzis, same said for the 696 Monster vs. the larger displacement Ducs, although the 696 makes a lot more power than the V7.

I say, go test ride them all, and buy what feels right.
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:35 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocker59 View Post
Ducati continually pushes the intervals out. The 750F1 of the 1980s was like 1,500 miles. What is Ducati advertising now? 15,000?
Go back even further. For a 1966 Monza Jr., the range on one tank of gas was listed at 291 miles.
Valve adjustment interval was listed as 310 miles. So basically you were supposed to check the valves every time you filled the tank.

And the Monza isn't even a desmo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kraven View Post
If they made a line of Desmo bikes for the faithful, and a line of shim/bucket bikes for the people who love the sound and look and could give a crap about the internals or winning a podium at Road ATL, they'd probably move a LOT more bikes globally.
I doubt they'd move a lot more bikes. They'd need to build a new factory first as they can only build about 40k bikes per year to begin with. I think they are planning a new factory(?) but for now the question seems to be how many of each model to build, not how many to build in total. They're at capacity now. Why introduce more complexity (different designs, more part numbers, new tooling, etc) to sell a lot more bikes when they can't build a lot more bikes to begin with?

They aren't for everyone. They don't need to be.

I'm not a huge fan of desmodromics. Some of my Ducatis have them, some don't. I don't much care either way. But having worked on them I'd say that the majority of the mystery surrounding them is perpetuated by people with zero hands-on exeprience. Checking/adjusting them isn't rocket science. Are they different than what most people are familiar with? Of course. Do they require tools that arent' included in the Craftsmen master set from Sears? Yes. Are they as complicated as some people would lead you to believe? No. FWIW I'll take the "complexity" of a desmo valvetrain over the philips head fasteners the Japanese seem(ed) so damn fascinated with any day of the week. But that's more of a vintage bike thing...

If you're going to have only one bike, that you ride 12,000 miles each year, and you hate doing maintanence, than no, a Ducati most certainly isn't for you.

I love Ducatis but fully understand they aren't the rational choice. So what? I live in Michigan. I've got multiple bikes, a long winter, and tools that Sears doesn't sell.

I also have a degree in aerospace engineering so even if adjusting desmo valetrains was rocket science I'd be ok, but that's beside the point.
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:17 PM   #80
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Desmodog/Craig, that response was fully awesome.
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Old 05-29-2012, 08:27 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jas67 View Post
And they're both 90 degree V-twins (all Guzzis are, and I guess, most Ducs are, but I do know of at least one V4 from them).
Moto Guzzi has been around since 1921....the transverse 90d v-twin was designed in the early 60's.
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Old 06-05-2012, 09:54 AM   #82
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Checking VS Adjusting

Whatever the maintenance interval is, I'd like to point out that it's for checking the valves, not necessarily adjusting them. After 20K miles most desmo heads are fully broken in and require little or no adjusting.

Back to the OP, the Stelvio and the new Multistrada are different bikes. You can compare the Stelvio to a BMW GS, not the Duc. The Multi might look like it's in a similar class but underneath the nice comfortable ergos and taller suspension, this is what you're actually riding:

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Old 06-05-2012, 10:21 AM   #83
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This is a REALLY good question. I recently sold a Guzzi '93 Daytona and just acquired a '04 Multistrada to replace it. While I am getting huge kicks out of the Duc - its so much fun to ride - I scour the ads daily for another Guzzi. It's an intangible thing really - the 'bucket of bolts' rattle that the Ducati makes from the clutch bugs me and makes me look around to see if anything is falling off the bike. The big bore Guzzi with a set of Staintune pipes makes the most wonderful noise as you accelerate that its quite simple - motorcycle heaven.

The Guzzi dealership and support is a total joke. As bad as you can get and still say you're in business - but that supplemented by a hugely strong owner's group over at WildGuzzi and no question ever goes unanswered.

The newest Multistrada is a tour de force. I've ridden it several miles and WOW - there is no bike in that class even close. It's a laser guided smart bomb on 2 wheels. The Stelvio is for the guy who is OK with going slower, and doesn't need/want the latest electronic doo-dads, and can appreciate fine details on his ride. With the right pipes, the sound is intoxicating and will make a Harley rider jealous.

I don't think you can pick one over the other. You need both. That's my plan and I'm sticking to it.
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Old 06-05-2012, 03:07 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by kraven View Post
Desmodog/Craig, that response was fully awesome.

i agree, that was great
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Old 06-05-2012, 07:43 PM   #85
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The main justification for the Desmo is to allow higher RPMs - without springs to compress the 'action' IS less draggy - allowing for better mechanical efficiency, but the big deal is that your vavles don't "float" at high engine speeds and run into the pistons. Conventional spring-returned valves have to be protected from too-high cam speeds ( operating a 2x crank speed) because the springs can't keep up at some point and when that happens the valve and piston will try to occupy the same space at the same time. This is bad.

While hardly a big concern for most road riders, having bikes with big V-twin engines and no readline on the tach is always good for a chuckle and then rev-ing them out to well beyond the piston speed where a pushrod motor would gack has it's appeal. Much like the legendary engines in The Vincent bikes - capable of 3x the rpms of other powerplants of it's day - well, remember Horsepower is represented by AREA under the curve, so more RPMs mean more checkered flags.

But the biggest 'feature' to me is the belt-driven cam - sure, it's a pain in the ass replacing those, BUT they are fast & light and when replaced the motor is 'refreshed' unlike any other valve-actuation scheme. Hydraulic chain adjusters just take out the slack and rods & gears all experieince wear - meaning the timing is never quite what is was new.

A Desmo motor with fresh belts, timed and adjusted correctly is as close to fresh motor as you are going to get, and that's pretty cool on a MOTORcycle.

Loved my ST4, - it was easier to ride than my Futura (which was faster) - but I still lust for a Norge and occasionally drool over a for-sale 1200 sport here.

The Desmodromic valve actuation system is too closely associated with the brand for them to abandon it, and heck with the maintenance intervals now published it seems little of an issue for most of thier clientele - seriously, if you can't afford the service, you probably should buy something else anyway.

RedShark screwed with this post 06-05-2012 at 07:54 PM
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Old 06-05-2012, 08:32 PM   #86
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[QUOTE=RedShark;18847124 Conventional spring-returned valves have to be protected from too-high cam speeds ( operating a 2x crank speed) because the springs can't keep up at some point and when that happens the valve and piston will try to occupy the same space at the same time. This is bad.

.[/QUOTE]

Cams , for desmo or valve spring accutation turn the same speed. One rotation of the cam for every two rotations of the crankshaft. Always.
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Old 06-05-2012, 08:35 PM   #87
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Many thanks for the fresh responses. It all builds up the picture. And I am still paying attention.

Both, eh? Yes, probably my ideal solution. But not a near-future option. And besides, if I could do that, I might regret selling my S4Rs.

I have taken a short test-ride on a Multi 12S, enough to get a sense of it but not enough for much understanding. While the motor might offer 1198 levels of performance, the MTS felt like a very big bike by comparison with the Monster.

On the "character" side, hard to tell. I do worry that with the "Evoluzione" engine and ride-by-wire throttle the Multi may have lost some of that relaxed Ducati lope. Reports on that seem to be mixed.

If I went in the Guzzi direction, I'd most likely choose the cast-wheel Stelvio, not yet available in the 'States.



(Pic: ashonbikes.com)

Obviously the Duc would be much quicker around a racetrack, but it is not clear to me how much more satisfying it would be at seven-tenths on real roads and mainly under 100mph. Which is more my style these days, especially loaded and/or two-up. (Yes I know, that pretty much removes the Duc's top-end power from the equation.)

Relevant video here of the earlier model Stelvio leading - and later chasing - a Multi 12 through some challenging low-speed hillside swervery. It has been pointed out on another thread that after the overtake, the Guzzi remains prominent in the Duc's mirrors to the end.



Duc is obviously over-powered for the conditions - but then, it is over-powered for most conditions. I am guessing that the Duc would feel much more secure and less work on faster roads, especially with high-speed change of direction.
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Old 06-05-2012, 09:54 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowinfastout View Post
The Guzzi dealership and support is a total joke.
that's been getting better, but it still depends on where you live as to how close you'll be to a dealer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by slowinfastout View Post
The Stelvio is for the guy who is OK with going slower, and doesn't need/want the latest electronic doo-dads
You make the Stelvio sound pokey...it's not at all, and only marginally slower than it's closest competition. Everything is slower than the current Multistrada, but up against the R1200GS it compares nicely.
The latest tune in the 8V motor makes it a much better all-rounder, and 105hp is not bad.

As to electronic doo-dads....the '12 NTX has the Aprilia switchable ABS and traction control - quite a sophisticated and well executed package.
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Old 06-05-2012, 10:27 PM   #89
ADV8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moronic View Post

BUT, which feel the best to ride?
Depends what your idea of best is.
I am willing to bet if you compare most modern belt drive Ducati's with most modern Moto Guzzi's,the Moto Guzzi's will have more flywheel weight (And or rotating crank shaft mass)
That makes a big difference in general running.
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Old 06-06-2012, 04:33 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moronic;18847581
If I went in the Guzzi direction, I'd most likely choose the cast-wheel Stelvio, not yet available in the 'States.

[IMG
http://daffyduc.smugmug.com/photos/1251736593_RMKoV-M.jpg[/IMG]
I have decided to pull the trigger on a new NTX. I'll be selling my FJR and Griso to obtain one either this year or next. The riding I do now puts the Stelvio in the lead for a lot of reasons. Owning a Griso has cleared my worries of MG quirks. The bikes are simply like nothing else.
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