ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Old's Cool > Airheads
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-15-2012, 06:51 PM   #46
ontic
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Melbourne
Oddometer: 1,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rucksta View Post
When you do the numbers on a higher 5th grear 5% less revs at 4000 plus means something.
At the other end
Minimum sustianable clutch out speed in 1st 8 or 7.6 kph is neither her nor there.
That is a helpful way of thinking about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chasbmw View Post
Ontic,

Why not ask motoren Israel? …

I have heard some stuff about the endurolast cam being originally designed to pass Swiss emission rules, but I'm not sure.
I should ask Motoren Israel. The only part I would need from them is the 296 cam though- everything else is already at hand (except for a lower first gear which originally I had planned not to use).

About the swiss emission rules stuff- do you recall where you might have read that?
I spent a while last night google-translating any german references about the 296 I could find- I'll see if I can post up the links later as someone who is actually fluent in German might be able to make some sense out of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adventure950 View Post
If I can figure out how to download the printout of a dyno run on my engine when it was new built I will if that helps - but I am trying to figure that one out at the minute.
Thanks for the big post above,
very helpful.
Good to hear your opinion on the lower first and with all the other things to consider I think I will just stick the higher 5th in and call it done.
For whatever they are worth (or not, but I don't want to hear the arguments) I'd love to see your dyno run.
I'm not sure what format you've got it in, but I'll PM you my email and maybe we can work it out,
Cheers,
__________________
1974 R90/6
1981 R80G/S
1994 XLR250R
ontic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 02:54 AM   #47
chasbmw
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Feb 2006
Location: Bath Uk
Oddometer: 2,042
If you scan the printout, then go onto photobucket.com, open an account (free) and from their you can post the image onto this site. If you make your photobucket account 'open to the public' if you tell us your photobucket user name we can go into the account and take a look for ourselves.

It would be really interesting to see the dynochart

Charles
__________________
Charles
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ps6e61ae2e.jpg
R90s 1070 replica, R90/6, 1958 R50
1971 Commando Fastback
chasbmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 04:15 AM   #48
ontic
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Melbourne
Oddometer: 1,067
I wish I could read German.
I've been google advanced searching through the http://www.boxer-forum.de/ and http://2-ventiler.de/ forums for 296 camshafts (Nockenwelle)

eg like this and this

then letting my google chrome browser auto translate things for me.
It has been interesting reading.

the take home message for me has been.... firstly that there are a lot of German speaking people out there who might have a bit to say about this cam...
also, it might be described as diesel-engine-like in its tractor-like torque,
the dyno runs may appear a tad disappointing on paper compared to other cams but by some descriptions the positives of a 296 are in the riding, seat of the pants type stuff- the rideability of the bike.... There is no point me trying to repeat the descriptions others have given about why they like/prefer the 296 over other cams other than to say when I read their explanations it seems like it is something I suspect I will also like.

However on the flip side, obviously things are much more complicated than just throwing in a new cam and expecting good results... bigger picture stuff that I don't really know much about. Carbs, exhaust, compression ratio, etc, etc...
A bit of a crapshoot really, but I think I will give it a go.
Anyway, I will contact motoren israel and see what they think about my planned application.

Cheers,
P.S. I got the dyno readout by adventure950 (Thanks!) but it seems that photobucket does not currently work with my Chrome browser... very annoying.
Gotta give up and make dinner now
__________________
1974 R90/6
1981 R80G/S
1994 XLR250R
ontic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 04:46 AM   #49
adventure950
Anglo-Saxon
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Location: Northumberland UK
Oddometer: 524
At Lat I have managed to get this dyno read out onto the computer and download it here. I have already said to Ontic that the DYNO is only a set of figures that in reality can not compare to other bikes as DYNO readings are specific to so many controlled conditions ie tyre types make a difference as does temperature etc etc. so to get true comparison you need to test each machine on the same dyno in the same circumstances. On my reading here note the following, I was running new knobbly tyres ( mefo stonemaster ) The carbs needed re jetted on the idle circuit, I was running a siebenrock sgs2 ( 2 into 1) exhaust The engine was an 1991 - r80gs originally so the original claims from BMW are HP at the crank 50HP @ 6500 revs torque 61 NM at its peak @ 3750.
My figures are measured at the back wheel Max horse power at 6250 52.76 ( this equates to a figure between 66hp and 72 hp at the crank depending on the guide estimator you use and a torque of 72.08 nm @ 3400 revs. But the torque curve has no peaks or troughs its almost flat from 2400 revs through to 6000revs. The torque is the feature that this engine set up is all about. In any case here is the dyno printout. I have changed quite a few pioints on the engine since this was taken so will need to go back to the guy that did the readout to get a direct comparison. I have tried to download some other dynos ie moorespeeds to get a comparision but am not able to do so - however I would say looking at both the readout on mine is a flatter torque band but maybe a few torques less at his peak reading.

you can check out moorespeeds dyno reading herehttp://www.moorespeed.co.uk/technical I however accept that moorespeeds bikes put out a lot more HP power at the top end of the rev range.
__________________
'A tourist sees what he went to see,
a traveller sees what he sees'
adventure950 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 01:43 PM   #50
adventure950
Anglo-Saxon
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Location: Northumberland UK
Oddometer: 524
I have managed to download BMWs own graph for power and torque so thats a comparison area to look at they seem to measure power in kw at the crank
so if the crank power on mine came in at 66hp that equates to around 49.5 kw if the crank reading was 72 it would be 54kw so lets go in between and call it 52kw. The original 80gs puts out a maximum of 37kw and the 100gs 44kw if I was to follow these measurements and conversions throughout the chart you would see a considerable boost in overall power everywhere on my bike As for the torque my bike is producing more torque at 2500 revs than the r80 at 3500 peak and the torque curve is very flat and stable.

But all in all its a paper exercise no more the real difference is in the riding punching out of a bend on a wet slippy road.
__________________
'A tourist sees what he went to see,
a traveller sees what he sees'
adventure950 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 04:15 PM   #51
RGregor
User Awaiting Email Confirmation
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: Bavaria
Oddometer: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by adventure950 View Post
At Lat I have managed to get this dyno read out onto the computer and download it here.
Do you have these data on paper only?
Any change to get the digital data?
Because then with the dynojet software (available for free) you could get your torque-curve printed with a better resolution.
RGregor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 04:54 PM   #52
supershaft
because I can
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Oddometer: 8,792
We're on the same page adv950 about dyno readings. The type of tire, miles on that tire, tire pressure. how is it strapped down to the dyno wheel and that's just the tip of the iceberg. The biggest diff IMO is it a brake or inertia dyno. How you get into the throttle and when makes all the difference in the readings in the world. With brake dynos you have the throttle and the brake application combined effecting the reading. Engine temp, oil temp, DYNO temp! Yes, dynos warm up too! It all adds up to huge differences in readings!

I think you are missing an important part of comparing your readings to the factory crank readings. You are comparing them as if your engine really could read the claimed specs at the crank in its stock condition. Those factory claims are under conditions that know one knows IF they ever really happened to begin with! My advise is to not compare your engine to something that most likely never was.

Just for comparison, the torque in my 336 dyno run peaks right when the throttle was cracked open at 3500rpm takes a dive and then bounces back to tie the peak 4300rpm then goes back down a bit to hover a little above or below 50ftlb until it starts tapering off just below 7000rpm. I think if the throttle and the brake were handled differently the real toque peak would right at 5252rpm but it's real flat before and after that. 336's are not suppose to make low rpm torque but they in fact make quite a bit from what I have seen with my own eyes.

I wanted to discuss someone somewhere realizing that you can't just drop a cam in and expect big changes. Everybody told me that concerning 336's and yet that is exactly what I did. I put one in without doing anything else to my engine. The result was awesome. It changed the bike night and day. It wanted to rev way higher and at the same time required way less down shifting to get the same jobs done on the same roads as before. I have down a lot of things to my bike since but starting with just a cam works. Many told me it wouldn't work but it ended up working very well for me.

supershaft screwed with this post 07-16-2012 at 05:02 PM
supershaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 05:29 PM   #53
RGregor
User Awaiting Email Confirmation
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: Bavaria
Oddometer: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
Just for comparison, the torque in my 336 dyno run peaks right when the throttle was cracked open at 3500rpm takes a dive and then bounces back to tie the peak 4300rpm then goes back down a bit to hover a little above or below 50ftlb until it starts tapering off just below 7000rpm.
Jesus, your'e providing numbers.
Personally, I never thought that would happen.

PS: would you guess that the dive effect may be due to having disabled the acceleration pump in your Dellos?
RGregor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 05:41 PM   #54
igormortis
Beastly Adventurer
 
igormortis's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: Moving further away from Wellington, New Zealand
Oddometer: 1,269
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGregor View Post
Do you have these data on paper only?
Any change to get the digital data?
Because then with the dynojet software (available for free) you could get your torque-curve printed with a better resolution.
Yeah, looks really nice and flat - but I’d love to see that vertical axis expanded.
igormortis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 05:44 PM   #55
supershaft
because I can
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Oddometer: 8,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGregor View Post
Jesus, your'e providing numbers.
Personally, I never thought that would happen.

PS: would you guess that the dive effect may be due to having disabled the acceleration pump in your Dellos?
Too bad the numbers mean almost nothing unless you got your numbers form the same dyno I did with the same operator when he was in the same mood.

Maybe the dip wouldn't have been quite as bad with pumps? That is just the type of ham fisted throttle jockeying pumps can help. I have been around too many runs to think that pumps or not had much to do with the dips in my runs. Running a dyno is like riding a bike in that not many are very good at it. That on top of one guy might have tons of experience and be real good at loading big HD engines and almost no experience loading airhead engines and be real bad at it. Plus, like I have said many times before, getting good, meaningful low rpm readings is the trickiest!
supershaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 04:23 AM   #56
adventure950
Anglo-Saxon
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Location: Northumberland UK
Oddometer: 524
Mr gregor no chance of getting any other data, I just had the bike dyno tested to set it up no other reason as I had so many changes to the machine and needed a baseline from which to work - ie checking fueling, timing etc. Ivormortis I know people like to see a lot more power but I think there will always be trade offs when your trying to achieve a particular goal depending on your finance - you cant have it all. I wanted low down torque lots of mid range and usable but was not bothered about to much horse power - like I said somewhere else I tend to ride in wet, cold or travel in icy (arctic)climates more than anything else - so gentle is the way to go for my riding needs. I would like to have been able to shorten the stroke and gone to a 1070 but i simply cant afford to fund that option at the moment. That said the power delivery is actually constant and progressive its not going to spin the tyre off the back wheel nor is it trying to break traction and spit me off - I can live with it the way it is ( for the moment).
__________________
'A tourist sees what he went to see,
a traveller sees what he sees'
adventure950 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 05:00 AM   #57
igormortis
Beastly Adventurer
 
igormortis's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: Moving further away from Wellington, New Zealand
Oddometer: 1,269
Quote:
Originally Posted by adventure950 View Post
...I know people like to see a lot more power...
Hey, that’s not what I mean’t at all - it looks spot on for what you (and I too, for that matter) are after. I was just concurring with RGregor cause I want a closer look at the graph.
igormortis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 05:54 AM   #58
RGregor
User Awaiting Email Confirmation
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: Bavaria
Oddometer: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
Too bad the numbers mean almost nothing unless you got your numbers form the same dyno I did with the same operator when he was in the same mood.
Relax, I won't even comment anything.
To be honest I'm fed up up with lengthy annoying discussions.
And the only reason why I asked was simply that I'm interested in improving my bike.
I've never found any information about the 336, at least other than BS or GREAT.
It may not be the same results than on another dyno but it puts things into relation.

Forget about my question about the pumps.
It's simply that my experience differs a bit from yours.
RGregor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 06:05 AM   #59
RGregor
User Awaiting Email Confirmation
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: Bavaria
Oddometer: 437
In the 2-Ventiler forum (www.2-ventiler.de) several guys run the 296° cam.
They're all very fond of it.
One of them (user mk66) has several bikes with different cam/displacement/heads/exhaust setup.
So he can compare a bit, what the results are and how they feel.
AFAIK he had all bikes dynoed on the same dyno.

His conclusion was (as far as I remember):
Other configurations have more torque, even at low rpm.
However, the 296 feels stronger when riding it.
It's definitely his favourite configuration.

That's only a rough conclusion out of my memory, for details you could contact him directly.
RGregor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 06:46 AM   #60
adventure950
Anglo-Saxon
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Location: Northumberland UK
Oddometer: 524
There was no offence taken in any case but oops I obviously read you wrong - its all very cool whatever anyone thinks as far as I am concerned. Tchus Jake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by igormortis View Post
Hey, that’s not what I mean’t at all - it looks spot on for what you (and I too, for that matter) are after. I was just concurring with RGregor cause I want a closer look at the graph.
__________________
'A tourist sees what he went to see,
a traveller sees what he sees'
adventure950 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 08:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014