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Old 06-09-2005, 10:30 PM   #31
KTMax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motoman250f
I'm buying more and more of what your saying here but the popping is just a pilot jet or air screw issue right? How it runs from 1/16 throttle up to wide open is more of a concern for the needles right?
Both. The graph below (from Keihin BTW) shows where and how the different fuel circuits and components work and interact throughout the throttle range. NOT to be confused with rev-range as a lot of people do...

The idle circuits - the idle mixture screw (IMS), pilot/slow jets for both fuel and air - work up to almost half throttle. With CV carbs like we have even a little further. The idle circuit is regarded as the most important and most difficult part of the carb setup 'cos it has a strong influence on how an engine reacts and feels on the throttle. It's the deciding circuit for driveability, starting, idling, throttle pickup etc.




Quote:
Originally Posted by motoman250f
Also are you running stock needles and would you suggest a person open up the air screws more if there is no popping? Thanks?
If you're running stock needles (raised one clip) and jets, the best way - the only way to be honest - is to sync the carbs and hook up a gas analyser to set the CO-level at 4.2%. Counting turns is rough and very inaccurate. I'd only use it as a road-side measure. If you use a gas analyser the mixture screws will end up in very different positions for the same CO-level as the front and rear cylinders don't behave the same, hence counting turns is far from accurate.

This is where the two bolds at the headerpipes are for. With open cans you put the analyser in the cans at the rear too but NOT with the stock cans! Any half decent bike shop has a gas analyser nowadays. With this procedure you'll have a healthy burble and mild popping on closed throttle. As it should!... A rich mixture fauls up the engine, damages the oilfim, wastes fuel and performs less. All things you don't want I'd say...

BTW, this is not to be confused with going from a poor (too lean) stock setup, choked and starving for fuel, to a (too) rich setup like with Factory. Then the rich mixture is an improvement ("Geez, this kit is great!")... But it's still going from a bad setup on one end off the scale to a little less bad setup on the other end...
.
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Old 06-10-2005, 07:55 AM   #32
wsmc99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTMax
The Factory kits we tried & tested (950, LC4, Honda Hawk 647 and some others) had one thing in common. They flooded the engines with too much fuel. Maybe because fuel is so cheap in the US.
So did you find a good setting with this kit? It seems they have researched it and provided a good base point?
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Old 06-10-2005, 08:04 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTMax
When you drop such settings into a bone stock engine, choked and asthmatic for fuel by emission & noise regs, they're bound to make a difference. This is exactly what the dyno-graph on the website show too.
The Dyno chart on the website is not done with stock exhaust ie "emissions & noise regs". It is done with Akros and stock jetting, then changed the jetting/needles.

Green: Akrapovic exhaust and stock jetting
Blue: Akrapovic exhaust with quiet core and Factory Pro jet kit
Red: Akrapovic exhaust with NO quiet core and Factory Pro jet kit

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Old 06-10-2005, 10:32 PM   #34
KTMax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsmc99
The Dyno chart on the website is not done with stock exhaust ie "emissions & noise regs". It is done with Akros and stock jetting, then changed the jetting/needles.
Yes I know. Pretty easy to produce such graphs. With the stock needles and jets too. We've been down this road before. Take a bone stock bike, a noise & emission choked to death So-Cal model prefferably, and you have good bad point to start with. Fit Akra's and the mixture gets even worse as it leans off further. Then richen things up, too much or not, and bang... there it is, a good improvement over stock. Wow... that's amazing...

Proper CO-level, stock needles raised one notch and the $10 open airbox corver gives exactly the same improvement. Without being too rich.

It's a shame they don't put the air-fuel graphs of these runs on the site too. But maybe that would explain too much...

But this is an old discussion, forget about it. I was only addressing the exhaust popping.
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Old 06-11-2005, 01:05 AM   #35
chasfactor
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I need some advice about the factory pro kit, etc. I have a 04 950 w/3K, needle raised one setting, sommer airbox screen, FMF cans. I have minor/slight popping on decelarations.

I am traveling to Alaska from Denver in July/Aug :) What might optimal jetting be? Needle settings?

I handed the bike in today for 4.5K service and asked to have the factory pro kit installed. The LC8 Tech said maybe I dont really want it?

Opinions welcome and thanks!

Chas Walter
Tulsa OK
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Old 06-11-2005, 07:15 AM   #36
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Factory pro jetting

chasfactor,
I have a very similar set up.I went with the 175,180 jets and the 45 pilot.At first I had the needles in the third slot (from top) But my mid range was to fat (rich).Second notch is perfect!Thanks to all the guys who helped me by posting!! Make sure your carb venting issues are taken care of.All of my past problems were from improper venting.(again thanks to advrider I figured it out) Check out the search feature for carb venting,sas,epc,canestectomy removal and you should be all set.Good Luck
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Old 06-18-2005, 11:28 AM   #37
msusslin
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BTW, this is not to be confused with going from a poor (too lean) stock setup, choked and starving for fuel, to a (too) rich setup like with Factory. Then the rich mixture is an improvement ("Geez, this kit is great!")... But it's still going from a bad setup on one end off the scale to a little less bad setup on the other end...

KTMAX Quote right on the point

All I can tell you Factory Pro's kit recommended setup sucks and should not be installed without the use of a dyno. What a waste of money and time and not to mention the performance difference. Even based on having talked to the service reps at Factory Pro before installing the kit per there recommended setup at my first service, which by the way is from 2003. I spend more money to have the bike checked on a dyno and here is what we found. The recommendations from Factory pro are so bad it won't even run up to redline and only pulls 85 horse since it won't even reach 9400rpm. It's way to rich all away around and it appears that getting a decent setting with the kit is difficult in midrange, due to the taper on the needle. We ended up with stock needle, 160 / 165 stock mains and 42 pilot. Now the bike pulls great and runs free versus that sludgy too much fuel burning setup recommended. The dyno curve with that setup certainly supports how it runs (92 horse at 9400 rpm). Factory pro recommends 175 / 180 mains and 45 pilot with the Titanium needle.

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Old 06-18-2005, 01:42 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer Whale KTM
chasfactor,
I have a very similar set up.I went with the 175,180 jets and the 45 pilot.At first I had the needles in the third slot (from top) But my mid range was to fat (rich).Second notch is perfect!Thanks to all the guys who helped me by posting!! Make sure your carb venting issues are taken care of.All of my past problems were from improper venting.(again thanks to advrider I figured it out) Check out the search feature for carb venting,sas,epc,canestectomy removal and you should be all set.Good Luck
Killer Whale KTM
Do you happen to remember where your air mixture screw ended up being set? I at 2.75-3.0 turns out and still getting idle lag (higher rpms for a few seconds prior to settling down to regular idle when coming off of the throttle). I started out at 2.5 and it was much worse. 3.0 is better but not perfect. Before I pull the skin off again, it would be good to hear what other settings are.

Rick
Franklin, TN
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Old 07-05-2005, 09:43 PM   #39
wsmc99
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Just test rode my 950 with the kit and the pipes on it.
Seems perfect. Solid Idle, no surging, a little pop on decel, pulls like a mother and good transitions.
Headed to Laguna Thursday for a full test, but all looks to be in order.
We'll see what the mileage looks like, of course it's really fun to twist her open now!
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Old 07-06-2005, 05:59 AM   #40
Chipper
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Question Air screw & Needle clip for msusslin?

Any info on what air screw and needle clip setting on dyno run? 1 lower than stock on needle and 2.5-3.0 on screw?
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Old 07-13-2005, 09:30 AM   #41
wsmc99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsmc99
Just test rode my 950 with the kit and the pipes on it.
Seems perfect. Solid Idle, no surging, a little pop on decel, pulls like a mother and good transitions.
Headed to Laguna Thursday for a full test, but all looks to be in order.
We'll see what the mileage looks like, of course it's really fun to twist her open now!
Okay I can now offer more input after a 1300 mile trip.
Yes, the Factory settings are too rich. While it runs pretty well at sea level to about 4000 feet once you hit 6000-8000 feet it's evident that the motor is getting too much fuel. I noticed the mid-range to be quite good though. Now I have to take it apart and start over...
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Old 07-13-2005, 09:35 AM   #42
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Msusslin,
Could you elaborate on the options you tried and your location (sea level?).
I would like to use the Factory Kit if possible and like to hear why you ultimatley didn't. Was the mid-range setting the issue?

I assume the setup you arrived at was with stock needles at #3 clip and A/F screws about 2 turns out?

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by msusslin
All I can tell you Factory Pro's kit recommended setup sucks and should not be installed without the use of a dyno. What a waste of money and time and not to mention the performance difference. Even based on having talked to the service reps at Factory Pro before installing the kit per there recommended setup at my first service, which by the way is from 2003. I spend more money to have the bike checked on a dyno and here is what we found. The recommendations from Factory pro are so bad it won't even run up to redline and only pulls 85 horse since it won't even reach 9400rpm. It's way to rich all away around and it appears that getting a decent setting with the kit is difficult in midrange, due to the taper on the needle. We ended up with stock needle, 160 / 165 stock mains and 42 pilot. Now the bike pulls great and runs free versus that sludgy too much fuel burning setup recommended. The dyno curve with that setup certainly supports how it runs (92 horse at 9400 rpm). Factory pro recommends 175 / 180 mains and 45 pilot with the Titanium needle.

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Old 07-14-2005, 10:12 AM   #43
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The best advice would be to take the bike to a shop with a dyno and try to set it up the best you can with the Factory Pro kit. We ran out of time and could not find a good setting with the kit and that’s why we ended up with a stock needle and main setup, which works great. The dyno curve is great and with more time we could have found some more top speed horsepower. At 9500 rpm the peak hp was 92 and I saw dyno curves, on other bikes, all away up to 98 hp with the same setup I have now. If you have enough time on the dyno you might be able to get a good dyno curve with the Factory Pro kit, but it seemed that the taper on the needle prevented a good setup in mid range.



Good luck.
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Old 07-14-2005, 10:15 AM   #44
msusslin
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"I assume the setup you arrived at was with stock needles at #3 clip and A/F screws about 2 turns out?" correct and the mains are 160 / 165 and 42 pilot

I'm at 600 feet and the setup was done in San Francisco.
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Old 07-14-2005, 02:37 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsmc99
Okay I can now offer more input after a 1300 mile trip.
Yes, the Factory settings are too rich. While it runs pretty well at sea level to about 4000 feet once you hit 6000-8000 feet it's evident that the motor is getting too much fuel. I noticed the mid-range to be quite good though. Now I have to take it apart and start over...
Try dropping your float level .3 to.5 mm
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