ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Orange Crush
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-19-2005, 02:46 PM   #61
wsmc99
Gnarly Adventurer
 
wsmc99's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: SD, CA.
Oddometer: 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by K2m
Before going to the FP kit I ran a #40, 2.5 (actually I put the clip on one and put both the thick and thin washers under it with another on top giving the same result) and 155-160..... This is the best it has run

With the FP kit I have run a #38, 2 and 160-165 giving near perfect A/f ratios.... but drive-ability leaves a bit to be desired.....
Could you expand upon the drive-ability issue? Where, what and what conditions?
Do you think going 2.5 on the clip in the FP setup would have resolved the drive-ability issue? Why such a small pilot (#38)?

My freind did stock everything with the needles at 2.5 and desribed drive-ability issues as well, when he went to #3 on the clip he felt it cured it.

Thanks.

wsmc99 screwed with this post 07-22-2005 at 12:05 PM
wsmc99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2005, 10:21 PM   #62
gbranham
Double eye
 
gbranham's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2004
Location: Portland OR USA
Oddometer: 999
Does anybody know how to make the on/off throttle response smoother? My bike feels like it has an early fuel injection set up. When I roll on the gas it will transition from closed throttle to open with a small but annoying jerk that upsets the front suspension. It happens when I'm rolling off the throttle also. This is not fun when leaned way over in a turn. I've checked the butterfly screws and they are tight. I haven't checked carb sync but it idles smoothly. This wasn't a problem when the bike was new. '04 with 7700 miles, all emission equip. removed, needles @ 3rd pos., Wings cans....Thanks for any help, Gary
__________________
Mista Kozzo sent me.
gbranham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2005, 11:47 PM   #63
KTMax
Ninth of the Nazgul
 
KTMax's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2003
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Oddometer: 1,099
Quote:
Originally Posted by wsmc99
Seems they (KTM) weren't that far off...
I made a typo in my previous post. The needle position is 3.5 and not 2.5. This only works with the centre section between the tanks ('glovebox') lifted at the front. The rest is the old routine. Sommer airbox cover, stock jetting, Idle CO at 4.2%. Without question still by far the best allround performance and rideability. Not the snatchy & jerky throttle response you'll get with Factory needles, often confused with 'better performance'. A cheap & easy trick.

No surging, no haunting, no stumbles, no 'sudden death' (whatever the f.ck that may be...) and no snatchy throttle. When both the fuel mixture and slide speed are right throughout the rev range, it is right. There's nothing more or better after that. No rocket science, no magic tricks. Boring isn't it?...
__________________
690 SMR

Pics & info @ MonoManiacs
KTMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 04:30 PM   #64
RedFlash
Go Cubs!
 
RedFlash's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Home of the Chicago Cubs!
Oddometer: 2,440
Differences...

I am in the middle of this mess right now and stopped to take some photos of the needles.

The top needle is the FP offering. Note the shorter overall length of the FP but longer reach from the same clip position. Measuring the first few millimeters of the tip show little taper. Once the taper starts, the two needles have about the same slope. Also note the tip of the stock needle; it is more pointed and sharp than the FP needle, which is blunt and a bit dull. Not sure what this means, it just caught my eye.



The next two show the detail of the clip area. The first has the FP needle on top. I wasn't sure if my photo was exaggerating the difference, so I lit it differently for the second shot...



... and it is obvious that the slots machined in the stock needle (right) for the clip, are tighter and cleaner than the FP version. Since the needle is completely held in position by the clip, any play in the slot will allow the needle to move up and down slightly within the slide, potentially varying the mixture.



Whether it is enough to cause noticeable performance issues is debatable. Probably not, but it may be worth investigating.
__________________
Applebee's is the dining equivalent of sweat-pants; it's where you go when you just don't care anymore... A-Bone
RedFlash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 11:26 PM   #65
wsmc99
Gnarly Adventurer
 
wsmc99's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: SD, CA.
Oddometer: 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redflash94

So, it's back to the stock needles (at 3rd clip from top), stock mains, and leaving the pilot at 45. My original objective was to set up a bike that ran well, not pursuing a golden talisman to hyper-performance. Maybe the latter is the intention of the folks at FP. It does not meet my needs.

I'll post some photos of the needles when I get the carbs disassembled this week.
Let me know how this combo comes out, it's what I was thinking of going to! You're in Silicon Valley, no?
wsmc99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 11:35 PM   #66
wsmc99
Gnarly Adventurer
 
wsmc99's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: SD, CA.
Oddometer: 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTMax
This only works with the centre section between the tanks ('glovebox') lifted at the front.
So what does that entail, shimming the attachment screws?
2.5 needles without the center being lifted. Had a buddy try that here and says that it didn't have the pull that #3 did.

Oh and just to confirm: your stock mains are 155/160?

wsmc99 screwed with this post 07-22-2005 at 11:57 AM
wsmc99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2005, 04:19 PM   #67
RedFlash
Go Cubs!
 
RedFlash's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Home of the Chicago Cubs!
Oddometer: 2,440
wsmc99 asked:

Quote:
Let me know how this combo comes out, it's what I was thinking of going to! You're in Silicon Valley, no?


Well, here is where I am set up:

Mains: 160/165.
Needle: Stock, on third clip position.
Pilot: 45.
Idle: 2.25 turns out.

This is better than the FP needle setup (second clip position) and the much larger mains. With the carbs synchronized, I have less handlebar buzz at 5500 RPM but it is still there, nonetheless . All in all, the bike pulls hard through the throttle motion, and especially hard at WOT. I think KTMax has the right dope on these carburetors .

I will pop the carbs out again at 4500 miles (1000 to go) when I do the oil change. The next step is to go to the stock mains, and I may go back to the 42 pilot.

Oh, and ...
... Nope, North Suburban Chicago :grinner
__________________
Applebee's is the dining equivalent of sweat-pants; it's where you go when you just don't care anymore... A-Bone

RedFlash screwed with this post 07-22-2005 at 05:03 PM
RedFlash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2005, 04:51 PM   #68
K2m
....58....
 
K2m's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Sydney Australia
Oddometer: 2,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by wsmc99
Could you expand upon the drive-ability issue? Where, what and what conditions?
Do you think going 2.5 on the clip in the FP setup would have resolved the drive-ability issue? Why such a small pilot (#38)?

My freind did stock everything with the needles at 2.5 and desribed drive-ability issues as well, when he went to #3 on the clip he felt it cured it.

Thanks.
Sorry it has taken so long to answer you...... I have been busy testing different setups and as you know it takes so long to get in and out of this air box.

Long story short..... My background is in programing injected turbo engines using Haltech management systems. I went chasing perfect A/F ratios for the LC8.
eg. In Australia during warm up ULP has a particular smell.... an aroma.... #38 gave me this. Light throttle cruse ratios of 16-17 to 1 return good economy #38 gave me 15-16 to 1. (modern cars cruse at around 14.7 to as required for the catalyst. My car runs 18 to 1. I have gotten 800+ km for 60lt, 2lt turbo Subaru).
The drive ability problem comes from not having throttle pump control. ie with the Haltech i can program enrichment in 3 areas..... of idle, under 3000 rpm and above. You can set the amount, and the decay rate @ rpm increase. With out this control on such lean mixtures the bike is hard to ride.

So I went to the bookcase to grab my copy of "Four stroke performance tuning" by A. Graham Bell.... yes his first name is Alex . There is 70 pages on tuning carburetors.
__________________
The News, those who are trying to control what we think, do not want us to see.
http://www.presstv.ir/live.html So good the British Gov. Banned it !!!
http://rt.com/on-air/rt-america-air/
K2m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2005, 05:28 PM   #69
Pantah
Red Sox Nation
 
Pantah's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: India Wharf
Oddometer: 9,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by K2m
Sorry it has taken so long to answer you...... I have been busy testing different setups and as you know it takes so long to get in and out of this air box.

Long story short..... My background is in programing injected turbo engines using Haltech management systems. I went chasing perfect A/F ratios for the LC8.
eg. In Australia during warm up ULP has a particular smell.... an aroma.... #38 gave me this. Light throttle cruse ratios of 16-17 to 1 return good economy #38 gave me 15-16 to 1. (modern cars cruse at around 14.7 to as required for the catalyst. My car runs 18 to 1. I have gotten 800+ km for 60lt, 2lt turbo Subaru).
The drive ability problem comes from not having throttle pump control. ie with the Haltech i can program enrichment in 3 areas..... of idle, under 3000 rpm and above. You can set the amount, and the decay rate @ rpm increase. With out this control on such lean mixtures the bike is hard to ride.

So I went to the bookcase to grab my copy of "Four stroke performance tuning" by A. Graham Bell.... yes his first name is Alex . There is 70 pages on tuning carburetors.
Ok so your post sounded like you know something about motors. Why does the KTM 942 run so poorly from a carburation perspective? I mean even my wife (who doesn't ride) would know the motor doesn't run right. The thing gets very poor gas mileage to boot, which suggests there is something wrong with it. I mean the best anybody here has ever posted is around 45mpg. A beater H-D 1200 gets over 50mpg. A ducati 916-motored ST4 gets 55mpg. That suggests those motors are more efficient and better running.

But the main thing is the KTM has a very unsteady idle, and that probably runs thru the entire rev range. The thing flloods in hot weather. The tanks do something to the cannister. The motor ....yada yada yada. Why is this? It's 2005, not 1956!

-p
__________________
Straight ahead and faster -Bo Weaver 1970
"There I was..." -Griffin Niner Three Hotel
"One day closer to a parade..." Jonny Gomes, spring training 2013
Pantah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2005, 06:12 PM   #70
K2m
....58....
 
K2m's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Sydney Australia
Oddometer: 2,242
REDFLASH94..... to compare needles use your vernier caliper to determine where the slope begins and ends and mark them with a texta..... measure the top OD and the bottom OD ..... put them together with the texta marks lined up and photograph and give us the measurements....... then you are comparing needles......


KTMAX..... Please tell us what cans you run..... and thanks for sharing your settings with us

I have dropped down one level on the mains to 155-160 and raised the FP needle to #4 with brilliant A/F ratio results I will leave these as they are. #4 on the FP is the equivalent of #3.5 on the Stock (I went to raise my needles from #2 to #3clip and discovered that they were on #3 already sorry WSMC99)

But still have issues with the pilot jet currently #42@ .5 turn out. I have a good collection of pilots #38 #40 #42 #45......

With these settings the hit in the mid range feels like it wants to brake the chain, and at WOT the front feels very lite the A/F is 12-13 all the way with 14-15 cruse. I run the 17T front sprocket and have run the 16T.
__________________
The News, those who are trying to control what we think, do not want us to see.
http://www.presstv.ir/live.html So good the British Gov. Banned it !!!
http://rt.com/on-air/rt-america-air/

K2m screwed with this post 07-24-2005 at 06:53 AM
K2m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2005, 06:54 PM   #71
RedFlash
Go Cubs!
 
RedFlash's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Home of the Chicago Cubs!
Oddometer: 2,440
Way aheada' ya'

K2m requested:
Quote:
...to compare needles use your vernier caliper to determine where the slope begins and ends and mark them with a ...
Will this help?
__________________________________________________ ____

StandardFactoryPro
Overall Length2.752.687
Straight Section D0.0980.097
Straight Section L1.0211.031
First Clip to bottom2.5612.629
Tip D0.0390.039
0.20.0390.039
0.30.0430.039
0.40.0480.044
0.50.0540.051
0.60.0620.057
0.70.0670.064
0.80.0740.072
0.90.0780.078
10.0840.084
1.10.0870.087
1.20.0910.091
1.30.0930.092
1.40.0950.095
1.50.0970.097
1.60.0990.099
1.70.0990.099
1.80.0990.099


These are approximate values but the curves look fairly linear on the Excel plot, which I seem to be unable to paste here . The bottom section of the table shows the diameter vs. position from the tip. The overall length and actual position in the jet, I'll leave to your math skills .
__________________
Applebee's is the dining equivalent of sweat-pants; it's where you go when you just don't care anymore... A-Bone

RedFlash screwed with this post 07-23-2005 at 01:16 AM
RedFlash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2005, 10:38 PM   #72
wsmc99
Gnarly Adventurer
 
wsmc99's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: SD, CA.
Oddometer: 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by K2m
I have dropped down one level on the mains to 155-160 and raised the FP needle to #4 with brilliant A/F ratio results I will leave these as they are. #4 on the FP is the equivalent of #4.5 on the Stock (I went to raise my needles from #2 to #3clip and discovered that they were on #3 already sorry WSMC99)

But still have issues with the pilot jet currently #42@ .5 turn out. I have a good collection of pilots #38 #40 #42 #45......

With these settings the hit in the mid range feels like it wants to brake the chain, and at WOT the front feels very lite the A/F is 12-13 all the way with 14-15 cruse. I run the 17T front sprocket and have run the 16T.
It sounds like you are getting very close to the "perfect" set-up!
The mid-range sounds great and the top end too. I've felt the mid-range pull even with my FP not dialed, it truly is the most fun!
Thank you for sharing this info!!! I guess I better order a few smaller pilots and get ready to take some body panels off!
wsmc99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2005, 11:08 PM   #73
K2m
....58....
 
K2m's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Sydney Australia
Oddometer: 2,242
REDFLASH

Your work is fantastic ...... but there is one more parameter needed... or I have missed it....... The E clip position.....say 3rd from the top and measure down comparing both.... also it's the relationship with the #1 and #5 positions.

PANTAH

The short answer would be ... this is what happens when you take a racing bike and offer it for sale in the market place with regard to pollution requirements.

If you got rid of the crap.....used Mioni's needle, Knobbys ect. and rode it in the desert like you were racing it would feel fine.....

Sommer has done a good job of tuning KTMAX's..... so it can be done. We in the Antipodes and the US do not have access to Sommer so we have to work it out for ourselves. Factory's web has a good page for tuning CV carbs. A Wideband helps heaps. I think that I am close to being spot on..... Just a few more tests to get the pilot right......
__________________
The News, those who are trying to control what we think, do not want us to see.
http://www.presstv.ir/live.html So good the British Gov. Banned it !!!
http://rt.com/on-air/rt-america-air/
K2m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2005, 01:11 AM   #74
RedFlash
Go Cubs!
 
RedFlash's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Home of the Chicago Cubs!
Oddometer: 2,440
If you look at my post with the picture of needle details, the values would not be consistent between the two needles. As I stated, the machined grooves of the FP needle are wider and less consistent. However, I will measure these when I have time and the carburetors are apart next time.


Just to clarify, I did include the measurment from the first clip position to the needle tip .
__________________
Applebee's is the dining equivalent of sweat-pants; it's where you go when you just don't care anymore... A-Bone
RedFlash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2005, 06:41 AM   #75
K2m
....58....
 
K2m's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Sydney Australia
Oddometer: 2,242
Correcting the jetting

KTMax runs Akras......

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...71#post1518971

Also he A/F ratios of 12 at WOT by running stock main jets 155 & 160

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...10#post1432610

I run a modified stock exhaust and I am getting 12s with the stock jets 155 & 160.
[img][/img]

So what works for us should work for you.

which leaves me to make this assertion......

The placement of the needle clip in the wrong position means that you must compensate for mid range leanness by using larger main jets ie..... FP #2 = 170 > 180 ..... FP #3 = 160 >170......

The problem with this is that you get WOT A/F ratios of (#2) 10s & (#3) 11s
Which kills HP......

All this I learnt the hard way

To be continued...
__________________
The News, those who are trying to control what we think, do not want us to see.
http://www.presstv.ir/live.html So good the British Gov. Banned it !!!
http://rt.com/on-air/rt-america-air/
K2m is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 07:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014