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Old 07-24-2005, 07:28 AM   #76
K2m
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Thank you Red flash your "less consistent" comment. That has made me look closer at the FP needle.....

[img][/img]
My clip is on the #4, and it is such a short step to the #5...... I wonder if by putting the clip on the #5, I may go back to the #38 pilot which improve cruse A/F considerably...... mmmmm

Excellent manometer that you made
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Old 07-24-2005, 08:11 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K2m
KTMax runs Akras......

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...71#post1518971

Also he A/F ratios of 12 at WOT by running stock main jets 155 & 160

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...10#post1432610

I run a modified stock exhaust and I am getting 12s with the stock jets 155 & 160.
[img][/img]

So what works for us should work for you.

which leaves me to make this assertion......

The placement of the needle clip in the wrong position means that you must compensate for mid range leanness by using larger main jets ie..... FP #2 = 170 > 180 ..... FP #3 = 160 >170......

The problem with this is that you get WOT A/F ratios of (#2) 10s & (#3) 11s
Which kills HP......

All this I learnt the hard way

To be continued...
I was wondering if you have tried the FP needles in the #4 position with #165-168 mains on #45 pilot with the fuel screws at what ever produces the best idle.
I have been running FP's on #3 with #170-175 mains and #42 pilot at 1 3/4 turns on screw with good results but seat of pants tells me I'm still a little rich. This motor seems to prefer rich in my experience as oppossed to optimum mixture. My friend who is running the FP in #4 as above has had very good results from a power perspective, but its hard to compare bike to bike as he has the inserts removed in the Akro's and is up 2 teeth on rear and 16 on the counter shaft. His bike pulls much harder on the rev limiter than mine but that could be gearing/exhaust setup more than jetting.
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Old 07-24-2005, 04:48 PM   #78
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KATOUM

KTMAX runs akras.... When Sommer tuned his bike they used a dyno with an exhaust analyzer and they get an A/F in the 12s at WOT with the 155 &160

I have the stock baffles in mine with the exit pipe at 2inches....50mm, and I am getting the same results at WOT with stock jets.

Once you rev above 65>7000 your needles position has no effect. Its pure main jet A/F ratio

Testing has shown that the best power is produced at 12>13 : 1 in any engine. Turbos will go 11s to avoid detonation.

The pilot puts fuel into the engine all the time. So my next move is to reduce the pilot to #38 and to compensate by lifting the needle to #5. This in the hope of finding a leaner cruse for better mileage.

My bike is running so well now that if I got my Co adjusted on the #42 pilots I could leave it alone.

I plan to try the #45s later in the week with clip #4 and turn out of .3>.4 turn.

"My friend who is running the FP in #4 as above has had very good results from a power perspective, but its hard to compare bike to bike as he has the inserts removed in the Akro's"

Thanks for that.... someone else is using clip #4 and commenting on this power hit in the mid range. The first time I experienced it I was in peak hour traffic and had to change my undies......

KTMAX's exhaust and mine could not be more different, and we use the same main jets!
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Old 07-24-2005, 10:39 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K2m
Once you rev above 65>7000 your needles position has no effect. Its pure main jet A/F ratio
That's not true K2m. The throttle position (the vacuum-slide position to be precise) is the decisive factor for the needle position. Not the revs.

Only at WOT and after the vacuum slides have openen fully, the main jets, needle tips (diameter & shape) and the pilot jets determine the mixture. Of these 3 variables the main jets are obiviously the most important.

Ideally the A/F graph should slope gently from 14:1 from off-idle to 12:1 at the redline. A richer 14:1 mixture gives the best throttle response and low- & midrange torque while a leaner 12:1 mixture gives the best top-end power.
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Old 07-25-2005, 10:07 AM   #80
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My Dyslexia...

"...Ideally the A/F graph should slope gently from 14:1 from off-idle to 12:1 at the redline. A richer 14:1 mixture gives the best throttle response and low- & midrange torque while a leaner 12:1 mixture gives the best top-end power."

Me thinks you mis-typed. Should be a "...leaner 14:1 mixture..." and "...richer 12:1 mixture..."

My dyslexia spotted your mis-type.
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Old 07-25-2005, 03:29 PM   #81
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.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=KTMax]That's not true K2m. The throttle position (the vacuum-slide position to be precise) is the decisive factor for the needle position. Not the revs.


I'll spell it out....on a nice straight piece of road free of traffic, expressways are good for this, at about 4000rpm you open her up... WOT. Such roads allow you to watch the wideband metre. By around 6500-7000rpm the A/F sort of settles at one ratio. This is where the needle no longer has an effect on the A/FR. To red-line the main jets control the AFR. Air density and humidity still have an effect, but we won't worry about that.


Only at WOT and after the vacuum slides have opened fully, the main jets, needle tips (diameter & shape) and the pilot jets determine the mixture. Of these 3 variables the main jets are obviously the most important.


I had made this assumption also. If you look at my previous posts you will see that with the stock needle I was running 155 & 160 mains. When I changed to Factory Pro needles I started with168 & 172, then dropped to160 & 165, then down to stock. Despite the fact that the Tip of the FP needle is 2mm longer with a flatter point, there is no noticeable difference in the AFR. So for the purpose of tuning the LC8 this can be ignored. This longer flatter tip may help Atomisation but I speculate....... Yes Max the pilot has an effect here.


Ideally the A/F graph should slope gently from 14:1 from off-idle to 12:1 at the red-line. A richer 14:1 mixture gives the best throttle response and low- & mid-range torque while a leaner 12:1 mixture gives the best top-end power.


This is priceless.......

Please excuse this as it's not in my normal nature to be rude to people, but he did recently call me a fool

Don't get mad..... get even!
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K2m screwed with this post 07-25-2005 at 03:42 PM
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Old 07-25-2005, 04:53 PM   #82
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Old 07-25-2005, 11:15 PM   #83
KTMax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erkmania
Me thinks you mis-typed. Should be a "...leaner 14:1 mixture..." and "...richer 12:1 mixture..."
Yes of course!

But at least it put the door open for some clever replies.

You call that rude K2m? Man, try again... Fact remains that there's no fixed relation between revs & needle position with CV carbs as your earlier post suggested. There's no need to spell it out to me but in 'general interest' I think it is. But I understand your urge to get even...

BTW as a general remark with all this expert carb tuning going on; keep in mind that it's absolutely necessary to shut off (or remove) the SAS system as this f.cks up all AFR readings.
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KTMax screwed with this post 07-26-2005 at 05:26 AM
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Old 07-26-2005, 06:28 AM   #84
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Keep it comin k2m.. If at some point you could give a baseline like "no sas, aftermarket ex, airbox mod = 42 idle, fp needle in #2 and 165,160 it would be a great starting point for others.
Then we could get a real comparison because so far the fp has been apples to oranges since nobody has done the extra work to fine tune.
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Old 07-26-2005, 09:16 AM   #85
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I would agree that the FP kit is apples to oranges to the stock jets. However, this brings up the question why the boys from Factory Pro don’t sort this out for the customers, with a good setting recommendation, to get the promised results for $100. It appears everybody is buying the kit, install it, to then start the long learning process with differing results and no clear best setting. Since I tossed the kit and setup the bike on a dyno for best result with stock components I found the performance to be flat out incredible throughout the rev-band. I can’t wait for somebody to proof me wrong in regards to the FP needles being the best for the bike. Additionally, if you go through all the posts on this issue you’ll find the setting which works best for quite a few people.
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Old 07-26-2005, 09:24 AM   #86
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Excluding elevation differences, it seems we could arrive at 3 "ideal" jetting configurations.
1. Stock bike
2. Aftermarket silencers with inserts
3. Aftermarket silencers w/o inserts

Of course, gearing changes the "ideal" as well as the airbox mod.
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Old 07-26-2005, 12:57 PM   #87
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It seems what works best for most is:

1. Aftermarket silencer
2. 16t front
3. Jetting 42 pilot, 160 / 165 main 3rd position stock needle which runs between 12 to 14 A/F on a dyno and great on the road, very smooth as well fromm 3000 RPM to 9500RPM
4. Air box mod (Sommer Door)
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Old 07-26-2005, 03:15 PM   #88
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Having completed another test last night I can now say that the pilot jets #38 #40 can now be removed from the test.

This is unfortunate as the opportunity to lean cruse, therefore add 50 > 100km to the tank is lost. We would need fuel Injection for that. I will inject this bike later when Injectors become available for a good price. I am looking at a pair of Ducati injectors later this week. Twin injectors per body. It all depends on measurements.

The pilots are to important to the overall fuel curve. It looks like the #45s are the go with a turn out of between .3 and 1.5

Needle position will be #4 or #5(which is a half step)

Mains 155 & 160 ( 158 & 163 would work very nice)

All crap removed from my bike in the first week. Most on the first night.

Run in as per "THE MAD" Motaman Seal those Rings

My float height is set at 2.1mm. Carbs left together. Right side measurement.

Exhaust as discussed in earlier posts.

I run a Mioni stile oil foam pre-filter, and test with and without this filter. The normal filter should be good for 50,000km. The difference to the A/FR is negligible.

Carb venting is done inside the airbox.
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K2m screwed with this post 07-26-2005 at 04:06 PM
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Old 07-26-2005, 03:16 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msusslin
It seems what works best for most is:

1. Aftermarket silencer
2. 16t front
3. Jetting 42 pilot, 160 / 165 main 3rd position stock needle which runs between 12 to 14 A/F on a dyno and great on the road, very smooth as well fromm 3000 RPM to 9500RPM
4. Air box mod (Sommer Door)
Fuel Air screws at ???
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Old 07-26-2005, 03:21 PM   #90
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Stock vs FP needle

A little comparaison...... the clip on the FP is on #5. Then slid into #3 of the stock........

[img][/img]


[img][/img]

Interesting Eh........
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