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Old 06-14-2012, 08:52 AM   #61
trailNtent
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They make them, you usually have to specify though. People that work in construction use them all the time.

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Old 06-14-2012, 08:53 AM   #62
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They make them, you usually have to specify though. People that work in construction use them all the time.

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I'm going to call and check now, thanks!
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:45 AM   #63
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(Sorry, I see above in this thread that you already had this conversation with someone, don't mean to rehash it. Also, I didn't mean your BMI specifically, rather that rampant obesity is the real cost that isn't being looked at here, and means your health insurance is crazily expensive, and that lots of healthy people are unable to afford insurance as a result, plane tickets are more expensive, etc.). I don't think we should deal with either through impinging on personal freedom. Rather than outlawing >16oz sodas (like they're trying to do in NYC), I think we should--and did--stop corn subsidies. I think the corn subsidies, advertising targeted toward kids, too much reliance on cars and workweeks that are too long, and not enough nutritional education... those are the problems, not the availability of soda.

Maybe it's because I live in NYC, but I think that laws are getting out of control. And it blows my mind that people want MORE laws rather than more education, etc.

Also, without a helmet i don't like cracking 35 mph, and with one, the sky is the limit. How does that figure into your safety equation?

-Nick from speedlimitzero.com
The thing here is we probably agree, there isn't a great solution. We have stupid laws. The drink thing is insane. Like people are too dumb to buy more or get free refills (well maybe some are that dumb, but not many). The UK attempted to half the size of wine bottles due to 'middle class drinking problems', because we were too stupid to buy twice as many bottles!

I am against stupid laws, but we have these laws because people cannot behave themselves :( I agree re corn laws. The government is there to force us to do stuff deep down we know we have to do but dont really want to do. The more we vaguely behave the less grounds they have to start screwing with our lives.

You cannot fix obesity with daft laws, taxing junk food and subsidising healthy food maybe? Education maybe, its hard to get most of a country to change its lifestyle. When I was growing up junk food was expensive, fruit, veg and meat were relatively cheap, I grew up eating and liking decent food, Being able to cook also helps. In countries where junk food is cheap and good food is expensive (which is pretty common across the developed world) the opposite becomes true. Probably take generations to make a change, but yes I am not a fan of Mc3seats on the airplane running up huge medical bills because they cannot eat sensibly.

Should the government mandate helmet wearing, no. Not on adults (under 21's maybe?), should they act to limit the financial impact on others, probably.

Another option might be a horror video. I went to work on a chemical plant, they showed us footage from various chemical plant disasters and industrial accidents. Internal footage, not news type stuff. Mangled corpses etc. People were sick, people left crying, people never actually started their jobs, it was that horrifying. Freaking hollywood couldn't come up with this. Maybe do the same with bike accidents. Want a licence, watch this video. Throw in some interviews with families who lost someone. Then let them have the choice and force them to carry additional insurance? Just an idea.
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We have the same trouble here. What I don't understand is If it's called tourist season, why can't I shoot them
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:59 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by ABritOnMaui View Post
Another option might be a horror video.
like this?



"it's not just you who feels the impact"
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:02 AM   #65
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also quite thought-provoking

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Old 06-14-2012, 10:30 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by ABritOnMaui View Post
The thing here is we probably agree, there isn't a great solution. We have stupid laws. The drink thing is insane. Like people are too dumb to buy more or get free refills (well maybe some are that dumb, but not many). The UK attempted to half the size of wine bottles due to 'middle class drinking problems', because we were too stupid to buy twice as many bottles!

I am against stupid laws, but we have these laws because people cannot behave themselves :( I agree re corn laws. The government is there to force us to do stuff deep down we know we have to do but dont really want to do. The more we vaguely behave the less grounds they have to start screwing with our lives.

You cannot fix obesity with daft laws, taxing junk food and subsidising healthy food maybe? Education maybe, its hard to get most of a country to change its lifestyle. When I was growing up junk food was expensive, fruit, veg and meat were relatively cheap, I grew up eating and liking decent food, Being able to cook also helps. In countries where junk food is cheap and good food is expensive (which is pretty common across the developed world) the opposite becomes true. Probably take generations to make a change, but yes I am not a fan of Mc3seats on the airplane running up huge medical bills because they cannot eat sensibly.

Should the government mandate helmet wearing, no. Not on adults (under 21's maybe?), should they act to limit the financial impact on others, probably.

Another option might be a horror video. I went to work on a chemical plant, they showed us footage from various chemical plant disasters and industrial accidents. Internal footage, not news type stuff. Mangled corpses etc. People were sick, people left crying, people never actually started their jobs, it was that horrifying. Freaking hollywood couldn't come up with this. Maybe do the same with bike accidents. Want a licence, watch this video. Throw in some interviews with families who lost someone. Then let them have the choice and force them to carry additional insurance? Just an idea.
confirmed. We do agree.
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:35 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by ABritOnMaui View Post
The thing here is we probably agree, there isn't a great solution. We have stupid laws. The drink thing is insane. Like people are too dumb to buy more or get free refills (well maybe some are that dumb, but not many). The UK attempted to half the size of wine bottles due to 'middle class drinking problems', because we were too stupid to buy twice as many bottles!

I am against stupid laws, but we have these laws because people cannot behave themselves :( I agree re corn laws. The government is there to force us to do stuff deep down we know we have to do but dont really want to do. The more we vaguely behave the less grounds they have to start screwing with our lives.

You cannot fix obesity with daft laws, taxing junk food and subsidising healthy food maybe? Education maybe, its hard to get most of a country to change its lifestyle. When I was growing up junk food was expensive, fruit, veg and meat were relatively cheap, I grew up eating and liking decent food, Being able to cook also helps. In countries where junk food is cheap and good food is expensive (which is pretty common across the developed world) the opposite becomes true. Probably take generations to make a change, but yes I am not a fan of Mc3seats on the airplane running up huge medical bills because they cannot eat sensibly.

Should the government mandate helmet wearing, no. Not on adults (under 21's maybe?), should they act to limit the financial impact on others, probably.

Another option might be a horror video. I went to work on a chemical plant, they showed us footage from various chemical plant disasters and industrial accidents. Internal footage, not news type stuff. Mangled corpses etc. People were sick, people left crying, people never actually started their jobs, it was that horrifying. Freaking hollywood couldn't come up with this. Maybe do the same with bike accidents. Want a licence, watch this video. Throw in some interviews with families who lost someone. Then let them have the choice and force them to carry additional insurance? Just an idea.
Gore vids are no big deal. Seen a bunch.

Personally I would like to see the repeal (for adults) of helmet laws, seatbelt laws, drug prohibition laws and gun control laws (all of Title 18, Sec. 922 USC).

No speed limits on rural interstate.

Of course, with that comes responsibility. If your negligence results in someone's death you go to jail. Period. Lex Talionis.

And if y'all don't want to pay for others' mistakes, don't fucking carry insurance in the first place because by definition that is what it's for.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconvenience attending too much Liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." --Thomas Jefferson

BTW, every ride I'm wearing a FF helmet, boots, gloves and body armor. I wear my seatbelt. I don't smoke.

However, I support the freedom to fail.

Where I draw the line is at minors. Not old enough to sign a contract, not old enough to choose.
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Old 06-14-2012, 11:19 AM   #68
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Sad to read about these things. Godspeed to the family & freinds of the rider.

The reality of motorcycle riding or operating any machinery is that accidents happen, whether or not its rider inattention or driver inattention. There's just too many distractions, life, cell phones, texting, etc. As of late, given all the distractions that most driver drivers have available to them, legally or illegal, I've been considering giving up street bikes and stick to dual sport (mostly dirt).

Nevertheless, to diminish the probability of getting hurt or killed, and affecting those that may need to care or in worst case bury me; I chose to wear a helmet and most gear. It's my personal choice to do so as there's no mandated requirement to wear helmets in New Mexico (which is just above Mississippi in poverty, BTW).

You only get one shot a life and generally it’s good. Yes, there are ups and downs, but its part of your story. My intent is to continue my life's journey and have as many chapters as possible. So when I ride, I choose to gear up.

Head injuries are serious and it does not take much to damage your melon (NFL rings a cord). Brain swelling can majorly change your personality without you knowing it and you may not recognize small injuries until later in life, strokes, accelerated brain degeneration, etc. Any help to protect my limited brain cells is worth it in IMHO.

If you don’t want to wear a helmet, that’s your decision, but always think of those that you leave behind, because once you're dead, you're gone. The only suffering left is those that you leave behind.

PS. I've been riding/racing motorcycles for 25 years and I'm young.

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Old 06-14-2012, 02:55 PM   #69
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If you dont want to wear a helmet, thats your decision, but always think of those that you leave behind, because once your dead, your gone. The only suffering left is those that you leave behind.
...... or those loved ones who now get to feed you pudding with a spoon, wipe the dribble off your half paralyzed face, and sponge bath you after they change your adult diapers because you cracked your melon while riding through town at low speeds.
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Old 06-14-2012, 03:04 PM   #70
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...... or those loved ones who now get to feed you pudding with a spoon, wipe the dribble off your half paralyzed face, and sponge bath you after they change your adult diapers because you cracked your melon while riding through town at low speeds.
What's with this macabre obsession with death and mutilation? Why aren't people mentioning riding skills, bike maintenance, and general care when riding? The subject of this thread was "riding a little too fast, a little too distracted, and hit the back of a minivan." Would a helmet have prevented injury? Maybe. Would avoiding the van completely by riding sensibly (not necessarily more slowly) have prevented it? Absolutely.

You guys sound like the people who scream at parents for letting their kids ride bicycles without a helmet, with no thought given to the riding skills of the child or the condition of the bicycle.

Helmets don't prevent huge injuries. Well, they do for a given impact, but wearing a helmet probably make you more likely to have a big impact. Helmets provide an extra sense of security and riding speeds and risks increase to match it. It's the same with seatbelts and airbags and anti-lock brakes. They don't only save lives... they also let drivers drive carelessly. You ever think to yourself that "safe cars make bad drivers" as you watch people in big fat SUV's text and swerve around? Well, the same thing applies to helmets. ATGATT makes people feel safe and so they ride faster. Whether it's more dangerous or not depends on the accuracy of their risk assessment and response to it, not whether they're wearing gear or not.


Life is dangerous. Deal with it.

Also, do you guys think that these dudes should be wearing helmets too? http://www.go-faster.com/SS100.html
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Old 06-14-2012, 05:45 PM   #71
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Nick2ny,
I agree with ya.... Sorry, I should have expanded on my thoughts. In my 40 plus years offroad, and 37 on road, it's been my observatIon that a large number of riders I encounter on the road can 'operate' a bike, but fall far short of knowing how to really ride one. I never fail to get edjumicated by far better riders all the time. I think a lot of educating riders is not just the new skill sets you acquire, but gaining a respect for what is REALLY possible , where the limits are in given situations and staying within your (and bikes) levels.
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:11 PM   #72
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If your negligence results in someone's death you go to jail. Period. Lex Talionis.
That's not enough of a deterrent and too expensive. Long drop or short drop should do it. Plus replace airbags with a 8 inch spike on the steering wheel, that should improve peoples driving.

The reason we have restrictive laws is because people abused their freedoms.

As an ex Brit the gun lobby here in the USA confuses me a little. I support the right to have a gun, to carry a gun and to have a concealed weapon. I grew up around them being used sensibly for working purposes (rural life). But when some nutjob walked into a school and murdered kids the British gun lobby (mainly) worked to assist, support and shape the legislation that then restricted gun ownership.

When you have the laws here about felons being allowed to get their gun licence back and the law being written in such a way that the judge can do very little to contest reinstatement, wouldn't it be in gun owners interests to stop nutjobs \ criminals etc having guns? This is a genuine, honest question, I'm not baiting, but why support something that is going to lead to giving people who don't agree with you an excuse to remove your freedoms?

One of the best ways to protect your own freedoms are to ensure others don't abuse them.
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We have the same trouble here. What I don't understand is If it's called tourist season, why can't I shoot them
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:29 PM   #73
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The problem I have is...where do you stop when legislating rights away? Riding without a helmet - a choice some make knowing the risks - risks they are willing to take - may not be your choice or my choice - but it may be someones. Admit it - riding a bike - even ATGATT - is riskier that riding in a cage - but we elect to exercise that right and take that risk. T-bone a car at 45 and even with your gear - it may not be survivable. So...if you want to make others wear helmets because you fear for their lives and deem their behavior as risky...how about those that deem our bikes as risky? Should we ban them? We would all be safer for that choice...and lives would be saved. Just saying....
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:46 PM   #74
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ABATE is that the Sarah Palin crowd?
Im in Canada I dont understand these things.
Not really, I'd say the bulk of them probably are but there's plenty of Democrats (Liberals, Leftists, Socialists if y'all up in Canada don't know the political stance of Dems) that are anti-helmet.

I lived in Daytona from 98-03 and have been back to bikeweek a couple times since. We had a Helmet law in FLA up until 1999, and BikeWeek deaths were like 4-5/yr then went up to like 20 as the number of shitty riders without helmets climbed. So a Helmet won't save you, but your odds of survival go way up.

I wish that the amount of money and effort that went into taking Helmet laws off the books would be put into rider education or motorcycle awareness campaigns for the cage drivers.
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Old 06-14-2012, 07:14 PM   #75
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The whole where do we draw the line thing is a damn hard question to answer. I'm no liberal but I do believe all kids should have quality healthcare and a good solid education irrespective of their parents means, I believe companies need some level of control but that capitalism is generally a decent way of doing things.

Legislating away rights is a tough subject, I think the line is drawn where it affects others. If Joe wants to own 100 acres in the middle of nowhere, make some moonshine, smoke pakalolo and generally chill. I am fine with that. I don't think we have a place to stop him. Assuming he isn't getting drunk and driving a truck full of his kids into a tree he isn't harming anyone. Now should he get steamed and decide to drive on a public road. Then it becomes affecting other people. Then I do care. I don't want him to have to kill my family before he gets punished. Why should people have to die before a clear and obvious danger is dealt with.

The decision we have to make is do we prohibit something that is dangerous before it causes an accident or hope the deterrent of punishment for any consequences works? The question then comes down to trading limiting rights vs requiring people to die before any action occurs. It is not a reach to say that drink driving is going to kill people. Why wait until people die? I believe that is the argument for legislating against certain things.

Allowing criminals and the insane access to firearms is not entirely sensible. Should we allow it? I think if somebody wants a gun and isn't mental or a criminal (I don't mean parking tickets, an actual felon) they should be allowed to have one. Waiting periods seem a sensible idea.

When laws go too far (and they sure as hell do sometimes) they do a disservice to their purpose. We cannot legislate a fitter society, we may be able to tax it half way there, but society has to change and has to want to change. We can legislate against big dangers

Do what you want on your own time in your own space. Endanger my family and yeah, I'm going to be mighty pissed. Rights (whilst essential and good things) have made people lazy and selfish. The best way to fight for your rights is to fight lazy stupid people. Less of them and a lot of laws can go away.
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We have the same trouble here. What I don't understand is If it's called tourist season, why can't I shoot them
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