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Old 06-14-2012, 06:54 AM   #1
gn77b OP
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5 degree timing advance - pros and cons?

hi all

I'm considering doing this mod on my Bandit 600. I did my reading on it but wanted to get a few more opinions before I get the dremel out. anyone else tried it? really worth it?
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Old 06-14-2012, 08:50 AM   #2
Tosh Togo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gn77b View Post
hi all

I'm considering doing this mod on my Bandit 600. I did my reading on it but wanted to get a few more opinions before I get the dremel out. anyone else tried it? really worth it?
What information or perceived result do you use to justify doing this?...

And no, it won't do much, aside from making more fuel turn into hot coolant instead of HP. When compared to archaic designs, 4-valve engines like yours don't need a lot of ignition advance to begin with, and cranking in an extra 5 degrees of advance just means that the pistons rising toward TDC will spend more time fighting the pressure in the combustion pocket.

If you want an engine that needs tinkering, go buy a Harley.
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Old 06-14-2012, 08:55 AM   #3
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Not familiar with your bike in particular.

but on the engines that I have messed with the ignition timing on.

usually, advancing the timing will give a peppier off idle throttle response, and will be more prone to 'ping' when you lug it, or do not use higher octane fuels.
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Old 06-14-2012, 08:57 AM   #4
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The only reason to advance timing would be altitude. General rule is 1 degree for every 1000 feet above sea level. Other than that its just going to make the bike run hotter.

But this mainly applies to older engines with carbs and mechanical advance.


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Old 06-14-2012, 09:08 AM   #5
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Really?

I don't know that bike very well, but it is air/oil cooled correct? First 5 degress is a lot. I am guessing total advance on that is in the low to mid 30s?

I want to make a point about ignition theory that I think is relavant. We are firing the plug before the piston gets to top dead center, why are we doing this? We do this becase it takes time for the flame kernel ignited by the spark plug to develop. The spark plug needs a "head start" to get the mixture going. If we fire the plug too early, the piston ends up rising on an already expanding, ignited mixture. A little bit of that might be okay, but too much and you end up running very hot and with poor efficiency. Too much advance causes detonation which is very, very bad.

I think there is a misconception that "more advance is good". I don't think this is the case. A little more advance may help power output at the very top end, but it could hurt power everywhere else. You want, need really, just the right amount of timing advance, more isn't better. It is possible that Suzuki was too conservative with the ignition map.

I am trying to get my next engine build to need as little advance as possible, but that is another conversation.

Eric
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:10 AM   #6
kpt4321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tosh Togo View Post
What information or perceived result do you use to justify doing this?...

And no, it won't do much, aside from making more fuel turn into hot coolant instead of HP. When compared to archaic designs, 4-valve engines like yours don't need a lot of ignition advance to begin with, and cranking in an extra 5 degrees of advance just means that the pistons rising toward TDC will spend more time fighting the pressure in the combustion pocket.

If you want an engine that needs tinkering, go buy a Harley.
It is very feasible that some power can be gained from advancing the ignition timing. I am not familiar enough with that bike to know how true this is for that model, or how much timing is appropriate. However, you seem to be making a blanket statement that tuning the timing isn't beneficial, when it certainly can be.

You're not going to pick up a lot, but you may gain a few HP and some improved throttle response.

What would make you think that the vehicle is perfectly optimized from the factory? They have a lot of constraints, which is why you can improve output with fuel tuning, exhaust swaps, ignition tuning, and the like.
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:14 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericrat View Post
It is possible that Suzuki was too conservative with the ignition map.
I would argue that it is not only possible, but very likely, just because they have to play it on the safe side to account for varying temps, low-octane fuel, crappy fuel, and usage across the whole spectrum.

The real question, though, is how much timing they took out from "ideal" timing to make it safer. The timing/power curve is pretty shallow near MBT, so backing off a few degrees (which they would certainly do) may not give up that much power.

(Sounds like you know what you're talking about; good to see tuners floating around here!)
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:49 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by gn77b View Post
I'm considering doing this mod on my Bandit 600. I did my reading on it but wanted to get a few more opinions before I get the dremel out. anyone else tried it? really worth it?
Trade it on a 750.
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:00 AM   #9
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Well on the bandit market there are aftermarket mods that complement the 5 degree advance and on the bandit world it is said that improves and smoothes performance. I just give this info to say that it is a very common and established mod along with jet kits and so on on the bandit..

Me myself would tweak any part of the bike but never alter the ignition or fueling but its just how i am, mainly because i know almost nothing about ignition and because i dont care much about performance besides going at 75. I guess ill stay suzuki conservative
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:45 AM   #10
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5 degrees IS a lot, though the Bandit mill might like it (I've no idea).

That said, I quit messing with ignition advance (on the street) when I retired my Tach/Dwell meter . . . engines, especially motorcyclkle engines, as dilvered in pretty good states of tune these days -- improvements are cerrtainly possible, but not nearly as easily as in the past.
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bomber60015 screwed with this post 06-14-2012 at 10:53 AM
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:28 PM   #11
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11.3 CR and air cooled......5 deg is alot.

I run a 4 degree advance and ktric unplugged(retards timing) on my zrx. but it's a 10:1 CR and water cooled. it'll ping if I lug it with 87 octane so I run 89 octane.
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:54 PM   #12
gn77b OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tosh Togo View Post
What information or perceived result do you use to justify doing this?...
it's a rather popular mod with Bandits, lots of people doing it but I'm the type that likes to research some more. Holeshot Performance based in the US sells stage 1 kits (jets, exhaust, filter and ignition advance rotor). I've talked to one guy that fitted it to his Bandit but I wanted a few documented opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tosh Togo View Post
If you want an engine that needs tinkering, go buy a Harley.
I admit that I like tinkering, but I hate choppers/cruisers :)


Quote:
Originally Posted by trailNtent View Post
The only reason to advance timing would be altitude. General rule is 1 degree for every 1000 feet above sea level. Other than that its just going to make the bike run hotter.

But this mainly applies to older engines with carbs and mechanical advance.
never heard of this. btw, the 600 Bandit is an old engine. I own the mark 1 which was released in '95 but is based on the GSX-R engine which came out in '86. that's 26 years ago.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ericrat View Post
I don't know that bike very well, but it is air/oil cooled correct? First 5 degress is a lot. I am guessing total advance on that is in the low to mid 30s?
yes, it is air/oil cooled. I don't know the advance map but it's a good idea to try and search for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericrat View Post
I want to make a point about ignition theory that I think is relavant. We are firing the plug before the piston gets to top dead center, why are we doing this? We do this becase it takes time for the flame kernel ignited by the spark plug to develop. The spark plug needs a "head start" to get the mixture going. If we fire the plug too early, the piston ends up rising on an already expanding, ignited mixture. A little bit of that might be okay, but too much and you end up running very hot and with poor efficiency. Too much advance causes detonation which is very, very bad.
I know all that, I'm an engineer myself but I don't specialize on automotive. I'm basically asking because manufacturers are known to give up a few HP here and there in order to meet emission regulations and all that. just like with factory pilot screw setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericrat View Post
I think there is a misconception that "more advance is good". I don't think this is the case. A little more advance may help power output at the very top end, but it could hurt power everywhere else. You want, need really, just the right amount of timing advance, more isn't better. It is possible that Suzuki was too conservative with the ignition map.
bingo! that's why people try it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kpt4321 View Post
I would argue that it is not only possible, but very likely, just because they have to play it on the safe side to account for varying temps, low-octane fuel, crappy fuel, and usage across the whole spectrum.

The real question, though, is how much timing they took out from "ideal" timing to make it safer. The timing/power curve is pretty shallow near MBT, so backing off a few degrees (which they would certainly do) may not give up that much power.

(Sounds like you know what you're talking about; good to see tuners floating around here!)
well, I was just about to do the mod but I found someone doing it the wrong way (actually retarding the timing) and being enthusiastic about the result. which made me stop and think for a bit... this is the danger with the Internet, some people would go ecstatic over anything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fast4d View Post
11.3 CR and air cooled......5 deg is alot.

I run a 4 degree advance and ktric unplugged(retards timing) on my zrx. but it's a 10:1 CR and water cooled. it'll ping if I lug it with 87 octane so I run 89 octane.
I live in Europe and lowest octane rating available is 95.
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:40 PM   #13
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I live in Europe and lowest octane rating available is 95.
Be careful. US fuel is specified as the RON and MON average; European fuel is just the RON, which tends to be higher. They are not directly comparable.
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:55 PM   #14
gn77b OP
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Originally Posted by kpt4321 View Post
Be careful. US fuel is specified as the RON and MON average; European fuel is just the RON, which tends to be higher. They are not directly comparable.
I was suspecting different yardsticks, 87/89 sounded weird. thanks for the info.
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Old 06-14-2012, 03:25 PM   #15
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I would not do 5 deg. all at once. Two at 2.5 deg. would be safer. And you need to establish exact TDC before you add advance. The OEM set up, due to manufacturing variance, may be advanced or retarded some now.
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