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Old 06-19-2012, 09:42 AM   #1
Sniper X OP
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Are the original /5 tank badges discontinued?

I have seen those listed in MAx's site and on ebay and they look like re-pops. No where near as nice as mine, and mine are NOS. Just wondering since I have three of the original NOS ones. I checked and all of them have to be re-pops because no one is saying they are original BMW parts.
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Sniper X screwed with this post 06-19-2012 at 10:29 AM
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Old 06-19-2012, 10:48 AM   #2
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Havce you checked Hucky's? His aren't listed as repro parts (always have an "R" suffix on the P/N).

16 11 1 230 769 tank emblem / 5 $ 50.70
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Old 06-19-2012, 10:54 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Bill Harris View Post
Havce you checked Hucky's? His aren't listed as repro parts (always have an "R" suffix on the P/N).

16 11 1 230 769 tank emblem / 5 $ 50.70
No I haven't. I'll look, thanks!
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Old 06-19-2012, 12:18 PM   #4
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No I haven't. I'll look, thanks!
He is probably getting from the same source as BMW. OR from BMW directly. Hence the price.
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Old 06-27-2012, 08:28 AM   #5
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The old enameled copper badges were never made by BMW, so technically, they're all "repops".

Any badges, current or past that are sold openly are real BMW badges because they're either made for BMW or with BMW's permission.

And yes, the quality of the officially recognized currently available badges isn't anywhere near as good as the German made originals. The new ones are made in China.

In case anyone is interested, I do enamelwork, and can restore original badges.

Here's a pair in the process of restoration. One with remnants of the original enamel, and one which has had the old enamel stripped of using hydrophlouric acid. (nasty stuff that dissolves silicons and calcites, but not metal or plastic)

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Old 06-27-2012, 09:59 AM   #6
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I'll keep that in mind. My badges are in good shape, but both have the little conchoidal "beauty mark" at the screw holes.

Enameled is also called Cloisonne ?
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Old 06-27-2012, 10:16 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Bill Harris View Post
I'll keep that in mind. My badges are in good shape, but both have the little conchoidal "beauty mark" at the screw holes.

Enameled is also called Cloisonne ?
Cloisonne is a misnomer. The correct name for this type of enamelwork is "Champleve" (with a little accent over the last e, as also should exist in cloisonne)

Both techniques involve enamel with a design created by having bare metal exposed in the enamel.
The difference is that with cloisonne, the design is in the form of a line drawing created using copper or silver wire bent to shape and embedded in the enamel, or soldered to the base metal.
Champleve, on the other hand creates a design by either embossing the metal or engraving it to leave raised metal with the spaces between filled with enamel.
It always irks me when I see advertisements in the BMWON magazine for "cloisonne" pins and badges, when they're clearly NOT cloisonne.

I've done a few badges using etched metal (not direct copies of BMW roundels), which are superior to all the modern production badges I've seen, even the ones sold by BMW dealers. Good enamelwork requires a lot of hand finishing to get a perfect finish.
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:27 AM   #8
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I love this place

Quote:
Originally Posted by caponerd View Post
Cloisonne is a misnomer. The correct name for this type of enamelwork is "Champleve" (with a little accent over the last e, as also should exist in cloisonne)

Both techniques involve enamel with a design created by having bare metal exposed in the enamel.
The difference is that with cloisonne, the design is in the form of a line drawing created using copper or silver wire bent to shape and embedded in the enamel, or soldered to the base metal.
Champleve, on the other hand creates a design by either embossing the metal or engraving it to leave raised metal with the spaces between filled with enamel.
It always irks me when I see advertisements in the BMWON magazine for "cloisonne" pins and badges, when they're clearly NOT cloisonne.

I've done a few badges using etched metal (not direct copies of BMW roundels), which are superior to all the modern production badges I've seen, even the ones sold by BMW dealers. Good enamelwork requires a lot of hand finishing to get a perfect finish.
I love this place. I knew the cloisonne part, but couldn't come up with champleve. It all flooded back upon reading your description. Funny, I had a discussion about enameling at "biker event" last night and quoted one of Oppi Untract's jewelry books here recently.

Do you mind me asking if you refire the enamel to brigh the final gloss up or do you sand and polish to get the final enamel level and the correct finish?

Thanks,

Eric
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:38 AM   #9
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[wink wink] I know it's not exactly cloisonne, but that's the first thing I think of and I just stuck m'self a keyword in...

I've followed your discussions fo r some time. Nice work.
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:24 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by ericrat View Post
I love this place. I knew the cloisonne part, but couldn't come up with champleve. It all flooded back upon reading your description. Funny, I had a discussion about enameling at "biker event" last night and quoted one of Oppi Untract's jewelry books here recently.

Do you mind me asking if you refire the enamel to brigh the final gloss up or do you sand and polish to get the final enamel level and the correct finish?

Thanks,

Eric

Oppi Untracht. Most of what I know about enameling was first introduced to me in his book on jewelry and metalsmithing.

I fire my work to restore the gloss after stoning and sanding it smooth. Then I pickle it to remove the scale from the exposed metal, and polish the metal using white diamond compound, then rouge to finish it.
I usually fire each peice at least four times, sometimes a lot more depending on number of colors used, complexity of design, and how the enamel fills between firings.
Lotta work.
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:01 PM   #11
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I'll contribute to this discussion by illustrating the quality of champlevé work coming out of China. Albeit, the quality is not near that described by caponerd. It can't be compared. However, for many airhead restorations, the investment in high quality work of the likes produced by caponerd and others in the art cannot be justified; thus there exists the market for reasonably priced repops like the one I recently purchased.

I found these 60mm champlevé repops on ebay, from the seller mhmetalheart. They looked from the Ebay description to be exactly what I was seeking. I wanted a reproduction roundel from an R27 or R51 with Serifed font and copper highlights (not chrome). This is what arrived today:



The base appears to be a brass rather than a copper. The enameling shows runs in a couple of places, a testament to their inferior pedigree. The enameling however is good enough for my purposes. It appears to be substantial and accurately applied on a plus side. The thickness of the base metal is approximately 2.5mm. These roundels are solid. The mounting holes are not beveled, meaning the mounting screws will be proud of the surface unless I countersink the holes myself (which I am planning). The backside of the roundel appears as below:


The price for these was very reasonable -- $30 per pair plus $16 shipping. I combined shipping on other parts I purchased which brought that price down. By comparison, purchasing original BMW roundels from the US would have cost me $40 per roundel plus shipping. The package took two weeks from Singapore to Ontario. I'm pleased with the roundels and could recommend them to others who are seeking reproductions but also are willing to make compromises in quality for price point.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:05 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caponerd View Post
Cloisonne is a misnomer. The correct name for this type of enamelwork is "Champleve" (with a little accent over the last e, as also should exist in cloisonne)

Both techniques involve enamel with a design created by having bare metal exposed in the enamel.
The difference is that with cloisonne, the design is in the form of a line drawing created using copper or silver wire bent to shape and embedded in the enamel, or soldered to the base metal.
Champleve, on the other hand creates a design by either embossing the metal or engraving it to leave raised metal with the spaces between filled with enamel.
It always irks me when I see advertisements in the BMWON magazine for "cloisonne" pins and badges, when they're clearly NOT cloisonne.

I've done a few badges using etched metal (not direct copies of BMW roundels), which are superior to all the modern production badges I've seen, even the ones sold by BMW dealers. Good enamelwork requires a lot of hand finishing to get a perfect finish.
I have not seen your work but I would recommend this over buying the new ones. All of the repros have the screw holes off by 2mm and if you use the stock screw the head of the screw will crack the enamel when you tighten them down.
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