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Old 07-13-2012, 07:30 PM   #256
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[QUOTE=everything centers around and is an offshoot of Harley. it isn't real complicated.=QUOTE]

I couldn't disagree more with the above comment. As for history, Triumph started in 1902, a year before Harley-Davidson. The Europeans developed sport-tourers specifically to deal with their environment, twisty/undulating roads.

Harleys developed for American roads, mostly dirt, with long stretches between towns. Big, heavy, slow, and over-built.

The two genres of motorcycles, mostly, did not compete directly with one another until WWII. American service-men, acquainted with big slow Harleys, were impresssed with the Triumphs, Nortons, and BSAs of England. Fast, agile, and fun.

That's when H-D began to face serious competition, when those men came home from the war and demanded better.

Germany rebuilt after WWII and reinvented the sport-tourer for their market and it has spread throughout the world.

Harley is the ultimate chameleon/copier, the Exelsior-Henderson Super X of 1929 is the style ALL H-D big-twins copied after it was introduced, the Ks and XLs copied the British brands, even the V-ROD copied Yamaha right down to the name (V-Max)!!

All H-Ds are copies of other brands .

Study your history, don't believe the marketing hype H-D spews. And yes, I owned Harleys for 20 years ('89-'09), but never caught the "Its the only REAL motorcycle" disease that aflicts most who ride them.

1/2 Brit screwed with this post 07-13-2012 at 07:58 PM
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Old 07-13-2012, 07:39 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Grainbelt View Post
You've ridden a recent HD touring bike (Road King, Electra Glide)?

I don't can't think of too many places they'd be out of place riding with an ST1300 or other land barge.

My brother and I grew up riding UJMs . He now rides an ST1300 in addition to a few smaller bikes. I bought a Road Glide Ultra last year with a 103.

He's got more acceration. Braking about the same between the two bikes. We make plenty good time on back roads. He doesn't leave me behind, unless he's completely stonking on it....

We both run fast two-lane sweepers at 80-90 mph. Hey, my big fat pig of a harley only weighs about 150 lbs more than his, and my center of gravity is lower. I have to time my passes much more than he does.

Seems pretty sporty, and we tour.

Trust me, passing guys on "fast" bikes is really fun on a Harley.

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Old 07-13-2012, 07:56 PM   #258
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Harleys developed for American roads, mostly dirt, with long stretches between towns. Big, heavy, slow, and over-built.
thats bullshit. harley was a company sticking a gas engine into a bicycle just like a lot of others were. they were after all a bicycle company.

they weren't "developed for american roads" they evolved like all the other companies did. each year they made progress. things got beefier and less bicycle like. they went to a chain. they went to a clutch. they went to twin cylinder and the rest is history.

they didn't face stiff competition post war from serviceman demanding better they faced stiff competition from BSA coming over and kicking their ass at their own game.

as for studying history I have and to say harley has copied other brands is ridiculous.
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Old 07-13-2012, 07:59 PM   #259
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The new FL's ('09 and later) are really good. A good rider can haul the mail on those things...

but they are not sport tourers, IMO.

as for what Harley riders know about bikes in general - I was at a charity ride a few weeks ago. I saw an ST1100 and I asked a guy if he rode in on it . "what's an ST1100?" he said.
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Old 07-13-2012, 11:30 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by nachtflug View Post
thats bullshit. harley was a company sticking a gas engine into a bicycle just like a lot of others were. they were after all a bicycle company.

they weren't "developed for american roads" they evolved like all the other companies did. each year they made progress. things got beefier and less bicycle like. they went to a chain. they went to a clutch. they went to twin cylinder and the rest is history.

they didn't face stiff competition post war from serviceman demanding better they faced stiff competition from BSA coming over and kicking their ass at their own game.

as for studying history I have and to say harley has copied other brands is ridiculous.
Sportsters WERE the result of British competition. Remember XLCRs?

The V-ROD is a Harley clone of the Yamaha V-MAX. But they had to get Porsche to design the motor for them. Look it up.

Every Harley today IS heavily influenced by their European/Japanese competition. That's why their bikes now have foot/shift-hand/clutch, better handling, and quality. Remember the AMF years? I do, they were a sad joke back then.


The only thing ridiculous is the denial of facts. You can ignore them, but they don't go away because you do so.

The Big-Twins, I'll admit, have stayed true to the style copied in 1929, and the Super X is long gone. So you can have that one .

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Old 07-14-2012, 06:26 AM   #261
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I have definitely noticed the same absence of sport-touring bikes, especially when I went on a cross-country trip.

There are two questions here:
1) Are there really that many fewer sport-touring bikes?
2) If there aren't really that many sport-touring bikes, where are they hidden?

For #1, the 'real' answer could be found in the number of bikes sold and registered. I dunno, but I'm sure those figures are out there.

I can easily see that the number of sport-touring bikes might seem under represented by the natural inclination for sport-touring riders to be on "b-roads", which are numerous and out of the way.

I have a Kawi Concours 14 (GTR 1400), with 32K miles on it. I avoid highways and actively seek out fire-roads. I am proud of myself when I find roads where I don't see anybody.


Answer to number two..... I found a dealer in the cheese haven, that appearantly has a vortex sucking up all the unsold fjr's all the way back to 08. I was close to buying an ae out of there then realised, how the hell do they have so many? all new 0 fricken miles I ending up gettiing a killer deal on my tiger instead.
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Old 07-14-2012, 06:41 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Kniff View Post
Sportsters WERE the result of British competition. Remember XLCRs?

The V-ROD is a Harley clone of the Yamaha V-MAX. But they had to get Porche to design the motor for them. Look it up.

Every Harley today IS heavily influenced by their European/Japanese competition. That's why their bikes now have foot/shift-hand/clutch, better handling, and quality. Remember the AMF years? I do, they were a sad joke back then.


The only thing ridiculous is the denial of facts. You can ignore them, but they don't go away because you do so.

The Big-Twins, I'll admit, have stayed true to the style copied in 1929, and the Super X is long gone. So you can have that one .

WOW.

I nominate this for the most ignorant post of the year award.
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Old 07-14-2012, 06:59 AM   #263
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ADV bikes have also taken over a displacement category that used to have sport tourers.

Not long ago there were 800 VFRs, Sprint 855-955-1050, Duc ST2/3/4, Futura, etc.

Now we have Tiger 800/1050, F800GS, Wee Strom, duc went the Multistrada route, the VFR is a big $$ boat, Sprint gained 100lbs to be a GT then was discontinued for a 1200 shaft drive version.

The Kawasaki Ninja 1000 is the one of the few left on the light and sporty side of the S-T continuum. F800ST as well, though I don't like it.

Peeps like me just buy middleweights and look to the aftermarket for the 'touring' parts.

I agree. I loved the older ones, then they gained weight, cost went through the roof, and we are left looking for the original "motorcycle". Every dam bike has to have a catagory, a specific type or group to be in. Sad...... I owned a honda 350 and toured on it lol! a nighthawk, same, my beloved Futura, that was when I went back to standard motorcycles and "made them" into what I want. My last bike was an fz6r, yes a little heavier, and less power than the fz6, but it actually was more comfy, and on wet days it had a fairing that caught 80 percent of the rain from my legs. I have to say though all in all, it was an incredible bike. I could go down fire roads, 2 track, gravel, dirt, no sand, but still munch down highway miles with the best of them, and when we got to a campsite, unload it and POW!! it became a really fun backroad burner!

I now have my tiger 1050, I test road the 800 didn't care for it, 1200 uh uh, I looked at the c14, nah, fjr, eh, the only thing I really wanted was a base. So the tiger is the base.... I will lower it an inch, have a custom shock on order for the winter, re-bag it the right way (stock bags suck like a 1.25 whore can I get some change back) already changed the windscreen and will be setting out to find lower fairing. ( to be different)


I don't think the sport tourers are dead, scarce or mia. They are just a diy now. If you want a "proper" one that you paid for stock, then you buy what some one else wants you to have.
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Old 07-14-2012, 07:25 AM   #264
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But they had to get Porche to design the motor for them. Look it up.
my god Porsche designed the VRod motor? who knew!!!
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Old 07-14-2012, 07:32 AM   #265
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That's why their bikes now have foot/shift-hand/clutch, better handling, and quality. Remember the AMF years? I do, they were a sad joke back then.

so do I. better quality post AMF was not a result of an influence of japanese bikes and the euro bikes you were referring to were out of business in the early 80's, or didn't you know that.
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Old 07-14-2012, 07:32 AM   #266
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Let's see now:

Harley's are sport tourers
And sport bikes are sport tourers
And Wings are sport tourers
And UJM's are sport tourers
And Adventure bikes are sport tourers
And no doubt thumpers, hacks, and scooters are as well.

Now that we've got that straightened out it would appear to Rider's origional premise that sport touring bikes are the most common on the road. I guess then the problem with that pesky sub-set of ST's/FJR's/C14's/RT's etc is that they are just overkill. Then again moderation has never been the watch-word of serious long-distance riders either, likely why so many of them have one of those bikes.
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Old 07-14-2012, 07:34 AM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crow View Post
...that was worth another viewing. Still cracks me up!

Absolutely hilarious! I had not seen this before. Thanks!
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Old 07-14-2012, 07:38 AM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rider33 View Post
Let's see now:

Harley's are sport tourers
And sport bikes are sport tourers
And Wings are sport tourers
And UJM's are sport tourers
And Adventure bikes are sport tourers
And no doubt thumpers, hacks, and scooters are as well.

Now that we've got that straightened out it would appear to Rider's origional premise that sport touring bikes are the most common on the road. I guess then the problem with that pesky sub-set of ST's/FJR's/C14's/RT's etc is that they are just overkill. Then again moderation has never been the watch-word of serious long-distance riders either, likely why so many of them have one of those bikes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXA338ro1mo
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Old 07-14-2012, 11:13 AM   #269
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Harley came out with the "Sport Tourer" in the 1920's, or even the teens.

the fact that they've built the basic design this long and people are still buying them (someone said they saw 1000's on the road) does hold some water.

to think that the ST1100/FJR ushered in the concept is just wrong.

you could make the argument that they AREN'T sport tourers. they're mutants and thats why they don't sell a whole lot of them.

I can hear it now. But..but nachtflug, the ST1100/FJR will do 130 mph all day long...

who cares. Mr Weber and his crew were riding flatheads and panheads at 80mph on dirt roads.

and stayed on the gas around corners. try that on a ST1100 and when you pull it out of the weeds tell me how great it is then.

everything centers around and is an offshoot of Harley. it isn't real complicated.


Harley is actually a good marketing campain....... that's it. Bikes...... they are ok, at best. I would be more likely to buy a Victory than a Harley.

I hold no loyalty to a brand, nor a version, you my friend need therapy. BSA, NORTON, Triumph, and dear I say Indian, all competed, and won, not just on pavement, dirt, and yes board track racing. At least know what you speak of for the brand you appearantly represent. Harley was comissioned to make copies of the bmw's during WWII! WHY!? because they were crap, and the boxers ran better, forgot to mention that one mr. copy..... The ones that were sent there were sent back because of the amount of failers, the boxers stayed there, working, Go look it up, Also my grandfather was there, and the amazing part is he had one, then he came home, looked for a boxer and Hardley would only sell the one they wanted to make, a V, he never owned another. sorry to burst your T-shirt company.
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Old 07-14-2012, 11:20 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by nachtflug View Post
thats bullshit. harley was a company sticking a gas engine into a bicycle just like a lot of others were. they were after all a bicycle company.

they weren't "developed for american roads" they evolved like all the other companies did. each year they made progress. things got beefier and less bicycle like. they went to a chain. they went to a clutch. they went to twin cylinder and the rest is history.

they didn't face stiff competition post war from serviceman demanding better they faced stiff competition from BSA coming over and kicking their ass at their own game.

as for studying history I have and to say harley has copied other brands is ridiculous.

30th anniversary addition Hyosung GV650............. V-rod ............ Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...... yep lines match, no way they could have used the design cues.....
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