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Old 09-26-2012, 02:44 PM   #361
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To their credit -and yes, KTM have been dominating the past 10 years, either due to riders on the payroll and/or Red Bull affiliations- the Austrians have increasingly offered a competitive bike for privateers plus a dedicated support plan / option for the race (parts credit, etc)

Witness the finishing list behind the aliens.. KTMs galore. You can still shell out around 30k and be on the starting line with a calm mind of increasing your chances of finishing because you chose Orange. (cue comments on camel grass charcoaled bikes). KTM has offered their bikes (albeit at a hefty price) ever since the purple Kini LC4 back in 95-96 (?)...

That's the spirit that I expect and hope trickles down from the HRC effort. However I am afraid that it won't. It's just not part of the Honda mentality / corporate culture.

Don't get me wrong, Big Red's effort will satisfy my bike porn & hopefully make the race a tighter, two-horse affair, but I don't see how it will benefit the privateers who want to add a finisher's medal to their trophy case.

The only thing HRC has ever cared for is the trophy case in Tokyo harbour. Sharing that technology & know-how -never mind making it available- with privateer racers has never been part of their plan.

OK, rant over
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:01 PM   #362
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I am going to politely disagree with you Brodovitch

A ktm replica is not even close to being on par with one of the factory bikes that are only provided to the aliens

I hope HRC builds a purpose built bike for their factory riders that can compete

There're already optionsout there for folks to turn their crfx bikes into good quality rally machines.

The race needs competition at the top, and that not only takes talent but a butt load of cash...cash that HRC has at it's disposal if it so chooses to spend.

4 more months, too early to start counting down?

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Old 09-26-2012, 03:02 PM   #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodovitch View Post
To their credit -and yes, KTM have been dominating the past 10 years, either due to riders on the payroll and/or Red Bull affiliations- the Austrians have increasingly offered a competitive bike for privateers plus a dedicated support plan / option for the race (parts credit, etc)

What's the difference between showing up on the starting line with a $$$$ KTM or a $$$$ Honda if both are almost "works" bikes of equal capability? If Honda follows up a successful bike with race support similar to what KTM has done over the years (or is that a pipe dream?) don't you end up with the same thing? Don't get me wrong, I do not think for one moment that Honda are fronting the resources for this effort with the mindset of building a cult following of rally privateers like KTM has.
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:20 PM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadly99 View Post
I am going to politely disagree with you Brodovitch

A ktm replica is not even close to being on par with one of the factory bikes that are only provided to the aliens
But it's what - 95% close? Ohlins TTX notwithstanding, porting work on the engine? HRC option: none.

I hope HRC builds a purpose built bike for their factory riders that can compete
I agree 100%. I really want HRC to swap stage wins with KTM


There're already optionsout there for folks to turn their crfx bikes into good quality rally machines.
Ditto with KTM - Vestal's kit comes to mind, as do Meca etc. But no other factory offers a bike to the public that's as close as to their factory effort as the 450RR

The race needs competition at the top, and that not only takes talent but a butt load of cash...cash that HRC has at it's disposal if it so chooses to spend.
I don't doubt it one second. My gripe is that it will never see the light of day to anyone not on the factory payroll

4 more months, too early to start counting down?
Never!

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Old 09-26-2012, 04:06 PM   #365
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Never too soon!

It's NEVER too soon to be counting down on the DAKAR start!!

I'm dreaming about it every day as I plan our ride to follow it down Peru's coast

Not advertizing... but I do have 3 more motorcycles with no riders !


I agree that Honda's Factory effort is POINTLESS (except to de-throne the aliens !! ) if they don't make it accessible to the common privateer! Europe makes plenty of moto porn that is out of our reach and has no support program! I want HONDA to gamble on volume sales of a real (and affordable) spec bike.

(rant NOT over!)

Toby
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charapa screwed with this post 09-26-2012 at 09:16 PM
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:10 PM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadly99 View Post

A ktm replica is not even close to being on par with one of the factory bikes that are only provided to the aliens

4 more months, too early to start counting down?

Agreed - just look at the works suspension. IIRC it costs $32000 to HIRE (not buy) it for the race along with the associated support. Add that to the cost of a 450 and consumables and your at +$100000 before you cross the start line.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:24 PM   #367
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Scuttlebutt says Chaleco forked out $100K from his own pocket for his "factory" KTM which will fly BF colors.
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Old 09-27-2012, 02:16 PM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charapa View Post
It's NEVER too soon to be counting down on the DAKAR start!!

I'm dreaming about it every day as I plan our ride to follow it down Peru's coast

Not advertizing... but I do have 3 more motorcycles with no riders !


I agree that Honda's Factory effort is POINTLESS (except to de-throne the aliens !! ) if they don't make it accessible to the common privateer! Europe makes plenty of moto porn that is out of our reach and has no support program! I want HONDA to gamble on volume sales of a real (and affordable) spec bike.

(rant NOT over!)

Toby


It's highly unlikely that the whole bike and engine will ever be available to joe public,, after all , Moto GP, super bikes or F1 arn't, - too many "special" bits, but we know from the press that some of the add ons will be available for the X, as they always have been, but you won't be able to fully replicate the HRC machine.

There has been a massive effort, R&D and of course cash that has gone into the effort - why?

The efforts of Roger Harvey and Henke Heligers have been instrumental, the profile of the race (as it truly is now at elite level) and the size of the bike market in South America has probably swung it, but only they can say - a great couple of first chapters for "Honda, a return to the Dakar" though?
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Old 09-27-2012, 06:44 PM   #369
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Agreed - just look at the works suspension. IIRC it costs $32000 to HIRE (not buy) it for the race along with the associated support. Add that to the cost of a 450 and consumables and your at +$100000 before you cross the start line.
Winning ain't for the faint of heart, or pocketbook.

After watching the factory 690s run away from his 690, Jonah wasn't anxious to race a customer 450RR. The team of engineers that built it, can find a million small and not so small ways to make it better than it's sold.

CRF-X options are already out there and quite competent. I hope HRC makes something that can win, and I hope they hire someone who can lead from the front. My opinion is that the 2nd is more critical than the first, and they don't have it yet.
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:06 PM   #370
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[. I hope HRC makes something that can win, and I hope they hire someone who can lead from the front. My opinion is that the 2nd is more critical than the first, and they don't have it yet.[/QUOTE]

thats the point exactly, doesn't matter how good their bike is ,they need the riders .Sure they will hire some good guys , but KTM have the 2 best guys by a longshot .
unless one of them jumps ship ,i think we will see orange at top of the podium again.
there are plenty of fast guys ,but just don't have the consistency .
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:57 PM   #371
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[. I hope HRC makes something that can win, and I hope they hire someone who can lead from the front. My opinion is that the 2nd is more critical than the first, and they don't have it yet.
thats the point exactly, doesn't matter how good their bike is ,they need the riders .Sure they will hire some good guys , but KTM have the 2 best guys by a longshot .
unless one of them jumps ship ,i think we will see orange at top of the podium again.
there are plenty of fast guys ,but just don't have the consistency .[/QUOTE]



There are few arguments on that front, but it will certainly be close - they are both getting on in years and are going to fade, whether it's this time is doubtful, but let's see how close both man and machine are in Morocco - 18 days and counting.
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Old 09-28-2012, 02:49 AM   #372
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I hope they hire someone who can lead from the front. My opinion is that the 2nd is more critical than the first, and they don't have it yet.
There are two pilots who are used to win in a "full factory effort" configuration. They were not available.

From all the rest, Honda picked up the most consistent rider and made a few clever options regarding the rest of their team. I think Helder had the best [classification/$ invested] ratio of everyone competing. Now that all the logistics are in "full factory effort" mode for him also, we'll see what is his real potential. I think/hope he can prove as good as the aliens, but thats just the faith of a true fan.

In reality, HRC will need time to have a "full factory effort" comparable to the orange organization and Helder Rodrigues will need time to learn the specifics of racing in this new mode. So 2013 may be too soon.

Anyway, it's going to be great. We already had a lot of fun watching the usual aliens/underdog confrontation. Orange vs Red is going to make it better!
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Old 09-28-2012, 05:39 AM   #373
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Scuttlebutt says Chaleco forked out $100K from his own pocket for his "factory" KTM which will fly BF colors.
I think he got the same package as South African champ Darryl Curtis and his mate did: They are racing factory KTM fully supplied (read hired) and supported by KTM factory for about this amount. Its an all inclusive package rather than just the bike.

So I don't believe the 450RR that you can buy as a consumer doesn't have all that much different from what the aliens have, its just that the bike is not going to be bench tested every afternoon. There are also a few customized extras, for example Cyril has his pegs adjusted 5 degrees forward dipped to the stock position.
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:34 AM   #374
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. There are also a few customized extras, for example Cyril has his pegs adjusted 5 degrees forward dipped to the stock position.
How in the H@%# do you find these things out Niel ??
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:42 AM   #375
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How in the H@%# do you find these things out Niel ??
If memory serves, it was on the Dakar coverage of last years rest day, right Neil? Despres briefly showed the bike to the cameras and explained a few details of his setup.
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