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Old 10-04-2012, 02:40 AM   #481
SafariBerg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by too old View Post

"Production-based"- now we know what that means, but what does it really mean?
it means that just like the KTM450RR its a parts bin special with a few low volume model specific bits bolted on and has been designed to do the job in a cost effective manner with low R&D costs
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Old 10-04-2012, 02:42 AM   #482
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My pleasure!

I believe there are a few things missing on this bike, perhaps just a showroom model. E.g. the 3L water tanke was not visible , but there was enough space on the right hand side of the bash plate...
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:03 AM   #483
Carlos M
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trang View Post
Any clues on the 'sponsorship' of the Shindengen company?

For a bike that has very limited logos at all, they sure seem to be predominately displayed.
Probably significant of the importance of the EFI thing in this venture...

Thanks for the spy pics Tony!
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:36 AM   #484
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Excellent on-the-spot photo work Tony!

Liking:
- the nav tower
- the pegs
- the overall finish / look of the bike (HRC level)

Not liking:
- the oil cooler placement / line routing
- the fuel pump placement
- the aluminum tanks. Weld cracking / fatigue might be an issue as noted above
- the mechanical clutch cable
- the EFI solution instead of a carb

Question:
- Is the airbox under the front of the seat / behind the main gas filler cap or towards the rear like the spec CRF?
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:06 AM   #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodovitch View Post
Excellent on-the-spot photo work Tony!

Liking:
- the nav tower
- the pegs
- the overall finish / look of the bike (HRC level)

Not liking:
- the oil cooler placement / line routing
- the fuel pump placement
- the aluminum tanks. Weld cracking / fatigue might be an issue as noted above
- the mechanical clutch cable
- the EFI solution instead of a carb

Question:
- Is the airbox under the front of the seat / behind the main gas filler cap or towards the rear like the spec CRF?

Believe it's at the rear and the whole are under the seat is intake, i.e. a ram air system and hence the EFI??

So best they ride fast especially with a full stage at 4,000m + of altitude!

too old screwed with this post 10-04-2012 at 04:40 AM
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:37 AM   #486
doyle
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In this day and age, it's surprising that any bike is still running a carb. Hell, my first VW Rabbit had FI from when it was made new 32 years ago. I don't understand why the fuel management available via EFI has been so slow to trickle over from cars to bikes. With the heat and altitude changes, for sure carbs have become very dialed in over the years, but Honda's EFI should be able to cope quite well. PGM-FI has only been run on a few tens of millions of cars in all environments.



Other than the EFI, I echo Brodovitch's likes and dislikes.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:21 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by doyle View Post
In this day and age, it's surprising that any bike is still running a carb. Hell, my first VW Rabbit had FI from when it was made new 32 years ago. I don't understand why the fuel management available via EFI has been so slow to trickle over from cars to bikes. With the heat and altitude changes, for sure carbs have become very dialed in over the years, but Honda's EFI should be able to cope quite well. PGM-FI has only been run on a few tens of millions of cars in all environments.



Other than the EFI, I echo Brodovitch's likes and dislikes.
Specifically dirt bike efi has not death well with the heat and dust that dirt bikes suffer.

Clearly ktm still believe the fcr is the way to go. I think we are perhaps 5 years away from rock solid efi that won't
leave you stranded. I'm very worried the efi will puck up and the 450x will fail.

One other thing that to me suggests the bike is bodgied together is the gaps in the panel work.

rmhrc628 screwed with this post 10-04-2012 at 05:29 AM
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:28 AM   #488
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My thoughts too... nothing against EFI in theory, in practice -especially in severe conditions like the Dakar- it has the potential to be buggy, especially for high tuned single cylinder bikes.

Heck, even road going V2's are still occasionally plagued with abruptness / jerky throttle responses in the low revs. Throw in other factors like injectors clogging (Manuel last year), fuel boiling (very high temperatures) and you get the picture

I'm no luddite and I know jack shit about tinkering with carbs, but assuming I have a team that can jet my bike each night for the next day's stage, why not? One less headache to deal with IMO.

Oh, and as for the press release claims "to pursue better fuel efficiency", I call BS... they already do that in MotoGP with their effing 21litre rule (don't get me started )
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:22 AM   #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodovitch View Post
Throw in other factors like injectors clogging (Manuel last year), fuel boiling (very high temperatures)
No direct experience but I would think EFI will deal much better with vapor locking, no? Every gas line from the pump to the throttle body will be highly pressurized
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:44 AM   #490
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No expert myself, but I think that when you get vapour lock, the pump cannot circulate the fuel... instead it pumps air.

I may be wrong though
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:59 AM   #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geode View Post
if the pump is inside the tank, and the tank fuel doesn't boil, then the pump will purge the hoses of air. the volume of fuel in the tank makes the tank fuel boiling a low probability event.

it was my understanding that the fuel boiled in the hoses that go from the tank to the carb. that is why hose routing, and hose insulation was so important to keep engine heat out of the hoses.

True, but the HRC bike is running the pump on the left side of the skid plate... ?
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:00 AM   #492
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Efi

The Husky-BMW are kicking ass and have done in Dakar with no EFI issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodovitch View Post
Throw in other factors like injectors clogging (Manuel last year), fuel boiling (very high temperatures) and you get the picture
None of the other Husabergs had injector issues and Manuel had not fitted the filter needed.

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Old 10-04-2012, 07:07 AM   #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodovitch View Post
No expert myself, but I think that when you get vapour lock, the pump cannot circulate the fuel... instead it pumps air.

I may be wrong though
Far from an expert, but most FI systems I know of are a pressurized fuel system that has a fuel recirculation layout - "excess fuel " is pumped back to the tank. Should keep the fuel cooler, and the pressure in the system should overcome the possible vapor lock.

I would be more concerned about the electronics. Dakar is about heat and dirt, and that spells trouble for electronics. Of course, that is no great revealation, and I'm sure HRC thinks it has a solution; I don't think they'd display their FI in such a public forum if they didn't. Personally, when it comes to the possibility of breaking down in the desert, I favor a system that can be fixed by shaking and huffing/puffing. I hope HRC's mileage differs.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:13 AM   #494
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Solid state electronics is pretty robust. If you're going to worry about a black box failing, best go back to points ignition rather than electronic/CDI.

Injectors might be a bit easier to block than carb needles, but pretty easy to carry a spare, and pretty unlikely with decent filters in the fuel system. Quicker to swap one than dismantling a carb as well.

Fuel pump reliability when exposed to extreme vibration and potentially dirty fuel? Dunno.

As others have noted, FI ought to be less sensitive to the fuel boiling issues that have plagued competitors on carb bikes in recent years.

@Brodovitch: The "road going V2s are jerky at low revs" thing has nothing to do with inherent limitations, and everything to do with manufacturers shipping bikes with fuel maps designed to meet emissions targets.


Sure, KTM still use FCRs, but they have absolutely no background in FI until very recently.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:18 AM   #495
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The speculation is going to make the reality a thing to wait for, but EFI and carbs do have similar issues, but for different reasons - but when was the last time the were there so many waiting for so much from so few? :

One thing we can all be sure of though is that the largest bike manufacturer in the world will leave little to chance with such a profiled effort, the do not talk the talk without a decent level of confidence.

Now it's up to team HCR

Roll on a week on Monday
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