Braking by Nick Ienatsch - Page 7

crofrog · 07-12-2012, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cliffy109

Yup... I think that is the thought that keeps bothering me. I don't know if I was still upright when I realized the nature of the corner or not. If I was, any amount of speed that I could scrub would have helped. Whether it was lack of skill, not enough time or just not thinking quickly enough, that didn't happen. My brain saw the problem and defaulted to "fuck it... lean harder and look through the corner" instead of considering finesse on the brakes.

As you point out, there is a moment when one is past the point of no return and the best is to "make it suck less" and the low-side certainly sucked less than a high side into the railing or down the side of a volcano.

Research: OODA loop: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

The corner caught you out, because you had to reorient to what you observed leaving you with less time to decide and act.

Honestly though, out of all the options you could of done I'd say the LEAN MORE decision is a mark of an experienced rider. Better than target fixating at the outside of the turn.

LuciferMutt · 07-12-2012, 11:27 AM

Judging from your description of the road, you were at least a gear too high.

Downhill hairpins suck though, they are my nemesis.

tkent02 · 07-12-2012, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cliffy109

So, would brakes have helped or hurt by the time I realized I was screwed? My hunch is that anything I did would have still resulted in a crash and that braking could have made things worse, but should I have tried it? I still don't know.

Brakes would have helped a lot if you were good at using them. If you have to wonder, you are not very good at it yet.

Harvey Krumpet · 07-12-2012, 03:16 PM

Quote:

I looked through the corner and hung my butt out, weighted the inside peg and pushed the bike as far as possible into the corner.

I guess your off was due to being to quick, when you realised it you had run out of options. My G/F's first off was in similar circumstances, gravel, pine needles, downhill, off camber, too quick & the clincher for her was grabbing the front brake.
The only option would have been to get the back around either on the throttle weighting the outside peg, body weight out of the corner or giving less control, locking the rear. Bloody scary when your going too fast but it's the last port of call to keep control.
A lot of gravel roads round here follow steep ridges, like a roller coaster with up & down hair pins, deep gravel & at times wet clay. I've had to steel myself to use the throttle through down hill corners with gritted teeth & clenched buttocks. Works every time, though.

TheWall · 07-13-2012, 08:18 PM

Not to be argumentative, but I am genuinely curious...when I took the MSF basic course, the instructor advocated either the "push harder or stand it up and brake straight ahead" point of view. His reasoning was that, if you haven't yet used up 100% of your available traction, then you can still turn tighter; if you are at 100% then you don't have any reserve for braking. I see two flaws with that viewpoint, however. First, I've dragged the pegs on my bike (not often, but I've done it), which tells me that ground clearance, rather than friction, is what limits my lean angle and turning radius. Second, Second, as you slow, your turning radius decreases, so it seems to me that braking gives you more options and more rom to turn and less severe penalties if you do try, ahem, inadvertent off-road excursions, shall we say?

Am I on the right track here, or did I miss Nick's point in the original post?

crofrog · 07-13-2012, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWall

Not to be argumentative, but I am genuinely curious...when I took the MSF basic course, the instructor advocated either the "push harder or stand it up and brake straight ahead" point of view. His reasoning was that, if you haven't yet used up 100% of your available traction, then you can still turn tighter; if you are at 100% then you don't have any reserve for braking. I see two flaws with that viewpoint, however. First, I've dragged the pegs on my bike (not often, but I've done it), which tells me that ground clearance, rather than friction, is what limits my lean angle and turning radius. Second, Second, as you slow, your turning radius decreases, so it seems to me that braking gives you more options and more rom to turn and less severe penalties if you do try, ahem, inadvertent off-road excursions, shall we say?

Am I on the right track here, or did I miss Nick's point in the original post?

You're on the right track the msf program has fundamental flaws in there curriculum because they don't believe people are capable of learning "advanced" techniques or they don't trust there instructor cadre to be able to teach them not sure which, all I know is low standards produce low results.

Things to think about when you're on the front brake you're transferring weight to the front, if you put weight on the front end you get more traction. So while braking in the turn means you are asking more of the tire, the tire also has more to give you with the additional weight, this is why it's incredibly important to ramp the forces up, and not spike them up (gently apply the brakes don't grab them.) however this isn't infinite eventually the tire will give you no more, as long as you approach the tires limit gradually, nothing bad will happen, the front tire will start making noise and then push a bit, if you exceed it rapidly you low side.

Also as you're bike bleeds speed if you don't want to continue running a tighter line you can start to stand the bike up which gives you more and more power you can use for braking.

Chris

TheWall · 07-14-2012, 12:28 AM

Thanks -- that makes a lot of sense

ibafran · 07-14-2012, 06:19 PM

Surferchris1 posted this in another thread.

"My supermoto coach put it to me a good way.

"It doesn't make you fast, it's just a byproduct of being fast."

I asked him a long time ago if I would get faster if I practiced backing it in? He told me not to practice it, and not to even think about it very much, that as I got faster I would just find myself doing it. It should be something that just comes naturally at a certain skill level, don't force it. He was right.

He told me the problem is that backing it in is flashy, so people do it to show off, and they end up doing it in places where they really shouldn't, and they lose time, or crash.

There is a time and a place for it, but most people think about it way too much, just focus on hitting your corners right, braking right, and having your weight in the right places, and the back end will brake loose if and when it needs to. "

- - - - - - - - -

Regarding trail braking, this quote speaks to me. As speeds come up due to proper straight line threshhold braking, hitting one's turn-in mark and straffing the apex reliably, the rider will begin to introduce SOME trail braking as part of the cornering technique. It is a natural progression from a well learned set of skills. One learns to trail brake because one percieves a need to do so only after all the basic skills are max'd out. Most people learn to juggle bean bags every which way near perfectly before they try it with chain saws.
If a rider was to ask me trail braking questions, I would be looking at his ability to do everything else so well that his/her questions would be well founded. And then I would most likely point him to a peer for assistance as he would be beyond my level of skill both as a rider and as a riding coach. It doesn't bother me to reply, "I don't know." when I have nothing left to add to the discussion.
Maybe what such a rider needs to learn is to become more like Freddie Spencer and cross up the forks during straight line braking and push the front end up to the turn-in point rather than trail brake after corner intitiation? Kenny Roberts teaches that to his go-fast guys. And he uses 50cc pocket rockets on dirt for his initial lesson to the art.
Carp! I don't know? How many track gurus does anyone know who can go so fast, so reilably, while trail braking to be able to calmly watch another rider trail brake and catch some minute ridding error in the the other rider's execution? I can't do that. Yet.

Craneguy · 07-14-2012, 06:30 PM

Watch this and see that going slow doesn't have to affect your turning radius.

Might not want to try it on a dual-sport!

Motorcycle Obstacle Course Video

Harvey Krumpet · 07-14-2012, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craneguy

Watch this and see that going slow doesn't have to affect your turning radius.

Might not want to try it on a dual-sport!

Motorcycle Obstacle Course Video

Check out the Gymkhana thread right here on ADV. A number of inmates are putting a lot of time into this, me included. It's the most fun I have had on a bike in years & the skill development is fantastic.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788591

Braking on a lean is mandatory.

Craneguy · 07-14-2012, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harvey Krumpet

Check out the Gymkhana thread right here on ADV. A number of inmates are putting a lot of time into this, me included. It's the most fun I have had on a bike in years & the skill development is fantastic.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788591

Braking on a lean is mandatory.

I will, thanks. I'm not sure I have the memory to compete in this.

TheWall · 07-14-2012, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craneguy

Watch this and see that going slow doesn't have to affect your turning radius.

Might not want to try it on a dual-sport!

Motorcycle Obstacle Course Video

Wow! Just...wow. One of these days, I'll be this good (hey, set your sights high, right? :)

Harvey Krumpet · 07-14-2012, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWall

Wow! Just...wow. One of these days, I'll be this good (hey, set your sights high, right? :)

That's always my reaction watching the pro's. After I've done some practice & it feels like I'm the man I watch the video of myself. Er, no, not even close

but on the bright side, getting better.

TheWall · 07-14-2012, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harvey Krumpet

That's always my reaction watching the pro's. After I've done some practice & it feels like I'm the man I watch the video of myself. Er, no, not even close

but on the bright side, getting better.

Yep, that's the way I see it. If I aim high, and only make it half way, I'm still a better rider than if I set them low and failed to hit even that low bar

On another note, this topic has given me some ideas on things to try and skills to work on. Can't wait to get some maintenance done on the bike so I can try these ideas out.

Andrew011 · 11-01-2012, 11:26 AM

I am glad I found this topic because it confirmed and explained something that bothered me for a while.

When I bought my first bike, I used trail braking instinctively: braking before the turn and slowly releasing the front brake until I couldn't see the exit - and then roll on the throttle. I didn't know what trail braking was or any other technique, I was a complete noob. My riding needed (and still needs) a lot of improvement.

After few months I took a course where they told us that we should not brake under any circumstances while leaning. I practiced that and I could ride that way, but it just felt "wrong", specially on the roads. My friend who adopted this technique (accelerating through the turn) once ran wide in the right turn while riding in front of me, and stopped in a bush by the road. We entered the turn approximately the same speed, he was probably afraid to even touch the brake lever.

My opinion is: in terms of safety, accelerating in a turn is not so safe, because we don't know if will we be forced to react instantly during the turn because of the incoming vehicles and other concerns of the traffic. If I accelerate in a turn, I take the weight and traction of the front tire and it is difficult for me to react abruptly without pogoing the bike. If just a liitle bit more weight is on the front tire, I can change the direction or slow down quickly if I need to avoid something on the road, and the ride feels more relaxed.

Finally, in this topic, I found an explanation for what I thought was good all the time.

07-12-2012, 11:27 AM	#92
LuciferMutt Rides slow bike slow Joined: Aug 2008 Location: New(er) Mexico Oddometer: 9,549	Judging from your description of the road, you were at least a gear too high. Downhill hairpins suck though, they are my nemesis. __________________ You couldn't hear a dump truck driving through a nitro glycerin plant! Cobbie Award Winner

07-14-2012, 06:19 PM	#98
ibafran villagidiot Joined: Apr 2007 Location: chicagoland Oddometer: 1,170	Surferchris1 posted this in another thread. "My supermoto coach put it to me a good way. "It doesn't make you fast, it's just a byproduct of being fast." I asked him a long time ago if I would get faster if I practiced backing it in? He told me not to practice it, and not to even think about it very much, that as I got faster I would just find myself doing it. It should be something that just comes naturally at a certain skill level, don't force it. He was right. He told me the problem is that backing it in is flashy, so people do it to show off, and they end up doing it in places where they really shouldn't, and they lose time, or crash. There is a time and a place for it, but most people think about it way too much, just focus on hitting your corners right, braking right, and having your weight in the right places, and the back end will brake loose if and when it needs to. " - - - - - - - - - Regarding trail braking, this quote speaks to me. As speeds come up due to proper straight line threshhold braking, hitting one's turn-in mark and straffing the apex reliably, the rider will begin to introduce SOME trail braking as part of the cornering technique. It is a natural progression from a well learned set of skills. One learns to trail brake because one percieves a need to do so only after all the basic skills are max'd out. Most people learn to juggle bean bags every which way near perfectly before they try it with chain saws. If a rider was to ask me trail braking questions, I would be looking at his ability to do everything else so well that his/her questions would be well founded. And then I would most likely point him to a peer for assistance as he would be beyond my level of skill both as a rider and as a riding coach. It doesn't bother me to reply, "I don't know." when I have nothing left to add to the discussion. Maybe what such a rider needs to learn is to become more like Freddie Spencer and cross up the forks during straight line braking and push the front end up to the turn-in point rather than trail brake after corner intitiation? Kenny Roberts teaches that to his go-fast guys. And he uses 50cc pocket rockets on dirt for his initial lesson to the art. Carp! I don't know? How many track gurus does anyone know who can go so fast, so reilably, while trail braking to be able to calmly watch another rider trail brake and catch some minute ridding error in the the other rider's execution? I can't do that. Yet. __________________ "beware the grease mud. for therein lies the skid demon."-memory from an old Honda safety pamphlet

07-14-2012, 06:30 PM	#99
Craneguy British Hooligan Joined: Apr 2011 Location: Cuernavaca, Mexico Oddometer: 903	Watch this and see that going slow doesn't have to affect your turning radius. Might not want to try it on a dual-sport! Motorcycle Obstacle Course Video __________________ *“The problem with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and putting things in it.”*

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07-13-2012, 08:18 PM	#95
TheWall 0 miles and counting Joined: Apr 2012 Location: Somewhere in the cold, frozen north Oddometer: 156	Not to be argumentative, but I am genuinely curious...when I took the MSF basic course, the instructor advocated either the "push harder or stand it up and brake straight ahead" point of view. His reasoning was that, if you haven't yet used up 100% of your available traction, then you can still turn tighter; if you are at 100% then you don't have any reserve for braking. I see two flaws with that viewpoint, however. First, I've dragged the pegs on my bike (not often, but I've done it), which tells me that ground clearance, rather than friction, is what limits my lean angle and turning radius. Second, Second, as you slow, your turning radius decreases, so it seems to me that braking gives you more options and more rom to turn and less severe penalties if you do try, ahem, inadvertent off-road excursions, shall we say? Am I on the right track here, or did I miss Nick's point in the original post?

07-14-2012, 12:28 AM	#97
TheWall 0 miles and counting Joined: Apr 2012 Location: Somewhere in the cold, frozen north Oddometer: 156	Thanks -- that makes a lot of sense

11-01-2012, 11:26 AM	#105
Andrew011 Adventurer Joined: Aug 2012 Oddometer: 13	I am glad I found this topic because it confirmed and explained something that bothered me for a while. When I bought my first bike, I used trail braking instinctively: braking before the turn and slowly releasing the front brake until I couldn't see the exit - and then roll on the throttle. I didn't know what trail braking was or any other technique, I was a complete noob. My riding needed (and still needs) a lot of improvement. After few months I took a course where they told us that we should not brake under any circumstances while leaning. I practiced that and I could ride that way, but it just felt "wrong", specially on the roads. My friend who adopted this technique (accelerating through the turn) once ran wide in the right turn while riding in front of me, and stopped in a bush by the road. We entered the turn approximately the same speed, he was probably afraid to even touch the brake lever. My opinion is: in terms of safety, accelerating in a turn is not so safe, because we don't know if will we be forced to react instantly during the turn because of the incoming vehicles and other concerns of the traffic. If I accelerate in a turn, I take the weight and traction of the front tire and it is difficult for me to react abruptly without pogoing the bike. If just a liitle bit more weight is on the front tire, I can change the direction or slow down quickly if I need to avoid something on the road, and the ride feels more relaxed. Finally, in this topic, I found an explanation for what I thought was good all the time.