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Old 08-04-2012, 02:10 PM   #61
supershaft
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stainlesscycle View Post
there are so many wrong statements in your post, i'm not gonna bother.
+1 Solder? Any numb nut can mess up the best way to measure anything. Solder is the best way. What's better?
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Old 08-05-2012, 12:48 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by stainlesscycle View Post
i don't google shit about tuning. so much bad info out there.
You obviously have little or no hands on experience, and the views you have expressed here certainly support the fact about bad info being about. In the real world anyone who finds that they have excessive squish clearance on an air-cooled 2T motor, will in many cases be able to improve the situation through removing the head and base gaskets, and sealing the decks with high temp silicone. If the changes dont work, then its very easy to simply refit the gaskets and return to stock spec!
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:56 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
You obviously have little or no hands on experience
yep, never worked on a bike in my life. never rode a bike either. heck, i'm afraid of them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
In the real world anyone who finds that they have excessive squish clearance on an air-cooled 2T motor, will in many cases be able to improve the situation through removing the head and base gaskets, and sealing the decks with high temp silicone. If the changes dont work, then its very easy to simply refit the gaskets and return to stock spec!
i don't know what real world you live in, but getting rid of base gaskets and head gaskets (and sealing with silicone!) is not the solution.

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Old 08-05-2012, 03:41 AM   #64
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If you cant suggest any reasons why reducing what in many cases might be 2mm squish clearance to 1mm by the very simple method of removing the head and base gaskets, is not likely to work, then I suggest you might think twice about responding to threads where you are clearly out of your depth, as this seems to be suggesting very strongly you are in fact a Google Gary, unable to find anything to support his ridiculous claims.
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Old 08-05-2012, 03:50 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
If you cant suggest any reasons why reducing what in many cases might be 2mm squish clearance to 1mm by the very simple method of removing the head and base gaskets, is not likely to work, then I suggest you might think twice about responding to threads where you are clearly out of your depth, as this seems to be suggesting very strongly you are in fact a Google Gary, unable to find anything to support his ridiculous claims.

a: 1 mm of squish is in general WAY too tight. there's no reason to go tighter than 1.2mm if you want a reliable motor. anything tighter than 1.4mm or so will need 112+ octane, at 1mm you'd have to retard timing pretty significantly, so you'd be losing all that you gained.
b: when you remove base gasket you lower the exhaust port. at bdc, exhaust port MAY not open fully. your'e going to lose SIGNIFICANT top end power, over rev will be non existent.
c: making 1mm squish from 2mm squish reduces the combustion chamber volume substantially, you would need to increase the dome to accomodate for the loss of volume. you'd also ping like crazy with 1mm of squish on stock gas.
d: when the piston is at bdc, the exhaust port needs to be open fully. you can figure the angle of the exhaust port for maximum flow. if the port is not open all the way flow is reduced. and if piston is too low below exhaust port, you're just less efficient, and flow is reduced by exhaust gas hitting cylinder wall, instead of zipping out the port.
e: i work on 2 stroke engines regularly. i rebuilt 2 this week. 1 more to go by monday. when i am not rebuilding them, i am jetting them and doing timing. i also race 2 strokes just about every weekend. i have tons of real world experience..
f: google gary is the most ridiculous term i've heard in a long time. i rarely google anything but stock specs. 99% of the stuff i work on has no information regarding tuning on the internet.
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Old 08-05-2012, 04:22 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by stainlesscycle View Post
a: 1 mm of squish is in general WAY too tight. there's no reason to go tighter than 1.2mm if you want a reliable motor. anything tighter than 1.4mm or so will need 112+ octane, at 1mm you'd have to retard timing pretty significantly, so you'd be losing all that you gained.
b: when you remove base gasket you lower the exhaust port. at bdc, exhaust port MAY not open fully. your'e going to lose SIGNIFICANT top end power, over rev will be non existent.
c: making 1mm squish from 2mm squish reduces the combustion chamber volume substantially, you would need to increase the dome to accomodate for the loss of volume. you'd also ping like crazy with 1mm of squish on stock gas.
d: when the piston is at bdc, the exhaust port needs to be open fully. you can figure the angle of the exhaust port for maximum flow. if the port is not open all the way flow is reduced. and if piston is too low below exhaust port, you're just less efficient, and flow is reduced by exhaust gas hitting cylinder wall, instead of zipping out the port.
e: i work on 2 stroke engines regularly. i rebuilt 2 this week. 1 more to go by monday. when i am not rebuilding them, i am jetting them and doing timing. i also race 2 strokes just about every weekend. i have tons of real world experience..
f: google gary is the most ridiculous term i've heard in a long time. i rarely google anything but stock specs. 99% of the stuff i work on has no information regarding tuning on the internet.

The post above suggests you most certainly are what I would term a "Google Gary".............I have run .5mm squish clearance no problem at all. Contrary to the perspective of Google Gary's closing the stock clearance tends to reduce the chances of detonation as less clearance means piston crown temperature tends to be reduced. If a motor does ping then taking a few cc out of the chamber with a die grinder takes about 10 minutes.

Increasing torque on either 2 or 4T motors, is easily achieved by higher compression and careful attention to the often poor intake and induction systems, and increased torque on a bike which is ridden on road or dirt, will mean a bike which is a lot nicer to ride than anything which has been modified by someone who may not even have a a basic understanding of how an IC engine actually works.

Over rev on nearly all modern 2T motors is dictated by effects of the pipe, and in most applications lowering the cylinder a little and closing up the squish will mean a bike thats easier to ride, that will perform better than stock. There will also be no need to give $$$$$$ to a Google Gary intent on getting to work with porting tools etc, which in many cases will mean a bike which runs worse than stock at anything other than WOT throttle settings!
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Old 08-05-2012, 04:33 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
The post above suggests you most certainly are what I would term a "Google Gary".............I have run .5mm squish clearance no problem at all. Contrary to the perspective of Google Gary's closing the stock clearance tends to reduce the chances of detonation as less clearance means piston crown temperature tends to be reduced. If a motor does ping then taking a few cc out of the chamber with a die grinder takes about 10 minutes.

Increasing torque on either 2 or 4T motors, is easily achieved by higher compression and careful attention to the often poor intake and induction systems, and increased torque on a bike which is ridden on road or dirt, will mean a bike which is a lot nicer to ride than anything which has been modified by someone who may not even have a a basic understanding of how an IC engine actually works.

Over rev on nearly all modern 2T motors is dictated by effects of the pipe, and in most applications lowering the cylinder a little and closing up the squish will mean a bike thats easier to ride, that will perform better than stock. There will also be no need to give $$$$$$ to a Google Gary intent on getting to work with porting tools etc, which in many cases will mean a bike which runs worse than stock at anything other than WOT throttle settings!
believe what you want. i did make an error earlier though. yes, there is the occasional motor that can have 1mm or less squish. in general, most do not. especially not when the factory sends them out at 2mm. you on the other hand never made any mention of reshaping the head, or exhaust port height - which you've not addressed at all. sure the pipe does most of the work, but if the ports not open, the pipe is not gonna work as efficiently as it could. i'm done wasting my time arguing with the mentally challenged.
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Old 08-05-2012, 05:14 AM   #68
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believe what you want. i did make an error earlier though. yes, there is the occasional motor that can have 1mm or less squish. in general, most do not. especially not when the factory sends them out at 2mm. you on the other hand never made any mention of reshaping the head, or exhaust port height - which you've not addressed at all. sure the pipe does most of the work, but if the ports not open, the pipe is not gonna work as efficiently as it could. i'm done wasting my time arguing with the mentally challenged.
You are not arguing with me............you have merely demonstrated very clearly you are way out of your depth with this, and apparently are unable to grasp the fact that the reason why factory squish clearance may be 2mm or more, has more to do with production tolerances and reducing unit costs than it has to do with performance.

If you had any idea of this subject you would be well aware of the very obvious fact that an engine with a Nikasil cylinder liner, and a 60mm bore size running 1 thou bore clearance, would work very well with .5mm squish clearance, where a motor with a cast iron sleeve and an 80mm bore, running 4 thou bore clearance, would need perhaps 1-1.5mm squish.

BS tends to get propagated on forums such as this to the extent that I would guess the majority of people reading posts tend to believe the type of thing posted by people such as stainlesscycle, who is quick to point out that something that has been tried and tested in real world conditions, isnt going to work, but is quite unable to outline why exactly this is the case.
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Old 08-05-2012, 05:52 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post

If you had any idea of this subject you would be well aware of the very obvious fact that an engine with a Nikasil cylinder liner, and a 60mm bore size running 1 thou bore clearance, would work very well with .5mm squish clearance, where a motor with a cast iron sleeve and an 80mm bore, running 4 thou bore clearance, would need perhaps 1-1.5mm squish.

BS tends to get propagated on forums such as this to the extent that I would guess the majority of people reading posts tend to believe the type of thing posted by people such as stainlesscycle, who is quick to point out that something that has been tried and tested in real world conditions, isnt going to work, but is quite unable to outline why exactly this is the case.
we are talking about air cooled motors. this is the vintage forum. not nikasil lined motors. show me the vintage air cooled motorcycle engine with a bore 56mm or larger and cast iron sleeve with a .5mm squish that can run reliably on pump gas, and stock timing. i'm also assuming this will be a motor you built, since you're the expert and all. and not a google gary. right? i'm also assuming you made the head and base gasket outta high temp silicone. instead of using a base gasket...

it's you who are full of shit. i can't believe i'm still replying. whatever.
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Old 08-05-2012, 06:26 AM   #70
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Since we are measuring ports by sticking our fingers in to feel, and now using silver paint glop and RTV silicone in place of gaskets.....................


Here's a great idea for sealing case halves !!




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Old 08-05-2012, 07:18 AM   #71
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we are talking about air cooled motors. this is the vintage forum. not nikasil lined motors. show me the vintage air cooled motorcycle engine with a bore 56mm or larger and cast iron sleeve with a .5mm squish that can run reliably on pump gas, and stock timing. i'm also assuming this will be a motor you built, since you're the expert and all. and not a google gary. right? i'm also assuming you made the head and base gasket outta high temp silicone. instead of using a base gasket...

it's you who are full of shit. i can't believe i'm still replying. whatever.
Nikasil has been in common use on air cooled motors since the 1970s, but I guess thats not something you would have been able to find out about on Google is it?

As outlined in an earlier post the amount of squish clearance that can be used safely on an air cooled motor is directly related to the cylinder diameter and bore clearance.

I suggest you get hold of some books on the fundamentals of 2T engine tuning and design, and make an attempt to grasp some of the basics, rather than continuing to make claims that are far from accurate, and of little help to anyone who is genuinely interested in improving their 2T bike without spending lots of $$$$$$$ on a port hack job.
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Old 08-05-2012, 08:44 AM   #72
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Nikasil has been in common use on air cooled motors since the 1970s, but I guess thats not something you would have been able to find out about on Google is it?

As outlined in an earlier post the amount of squish clearance that can be used safely on an air cooled motor is directly related to the cylinder diameter and bore clearance.

I suggest you get hold of some books on the fundamentals of 2T engine tuning and design, and make an attempt to grasp some of the basics, rather than continuing to make claims that are far from accurate, and of little help to anyone who is genuinely interested in improving their 2T bike without spending lots of $$$$$$$ on a port hack job.
i don't know why the fuck you are you hung up on this google thing. i posted a link to how to measure squish. easier to post that then type it out. i'm not googling anything about porting, just typing what i think.

since you're the expert, tell us about some of the motors you've built? by the way you speak, you must be building lots of race winning motors, with people beating down your door and picking through your trash for your secrets. you've failed to answer my question about which motor it was with the squish and specs you claim. you go off on a tangent about nikasil (which vintage 2 stroke air cooled motorcycle had a nikasil cylinder? please post which one....i'm sure you can google that.) . i addressed your moronic statements, you have not addressed any questions i posed to you. you tell me to 'read up on 2t theory' why would i do that? i can get all the 'real world' info from you. using silicone as a base and head gasket is the ultimate hack job. telling someone to just remove gaskets is also a hack job. telling people that 'polishing exhaust ports is a hack job' is a hack job.. telling people that .5mm squish is 'real world' is a hack job. it's you that doesn't have a fucking clue.
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stainlesscycle screwed with this post 08-05-2012 at 09:21 AM
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Old 08-05-2012, 09:27 AM   #73
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Holy crap people, this is just a suggestion forum, and for Old school 2 smokers and IIRC they didn't Niksil any of them so step away from the key boards and relax we are supposed to help not attack eachother
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Old 08-05-2012, 09:40 AM   #74
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You posted a link to a site which is offering to machine cylinder heads mail order, which seems to suggest that accurate measurement isnt important, when in actual fact this is crucial to whether the finished job works or not! I seem to remember the mail order squish guy also offers mail order carb mods, which were first tried by Ricardo here in the UK during the 1920's................

The motor with .5mm squish was used successfully in a UK classic competition series a few years back, and there is no reason to expect any Nikasil motor with a similar bore size, wouldnt also work well.

"Hack Job" refers to "tuning" work carried out by people without much understanding of even the basics of 2T engine design and modification, that involve removing metal which in many cases will result in parts in real terms being destroyed, as any possible gains are likely to be at WOT throttle settings, and will mean in some cases the only option will be to replace the modified items.

Good thing about very simple alterations like removing the gaskets and optimising the intake and exhaust systems, is that making these changes costs very little and its very easy to go back to stock specs if required.

Sadly though there are an awful lot of Google Garys out there, who feel that they can do better than the factories who designed and made the bikes they "modify", and I get the feeling that making money is the main reason corners get cut, and customers get ripped off with worthless hack job tuning work.
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Old 08-05-2012, 09:42 AM   #75
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Holy crap people, this is just a suggestion forum, and for Old school 2 smokers and IIRC they didn't Niksil any of them so step away from the key boards and relax we are supposed to help not attack eachother
Italian manufacturers were using Nikasil lined motors as long ago as the late 70s.
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