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Old 07-24-2013, 06:23 AM   #826
Steveo1o9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PFFOG View Post
I hired a lot of engineers and Engineering Coops from RIT. One of the first questions was did they do their own work on their car, bicycle, etc. Did they get in trouble as a kid when they took apart a radio/tv/lawmower etc? And did they get it back together? If it was no, their use to me was nil. I needed designers that were practical., and could trouble shoot both new and old designs.

Being able to do 2nd order Differential Equations in their head, did nothing to help the company.
I don't want to derail this thread any further but I had to chime in as I am a "young" engineer and graduated from RIT. I have a BS in civil engineering technology and we learned much more practical information and were not required to take some of the useless classes the engineering science majors had to (ex. calculus 3 & 4). To sum it up the engineering science majors had the skills to derive an equation they need, but the tech students knew how to use and apply the equations that someone already derived. I went to school with a lot of brilliant people but many were just book smart and had no hands on skills. One example was my roommate who was a ME science major and very book smart but could not figure out how to open a picture frame (true story)... Almost all of my tech classmates were into some sort of motorsport and could turn a wrench or swing a hammer, etc.
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Old 07-24-2013, 06:56 AM   #827
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damn
remember I went to tech school with the dumb kids
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Old 07-24-2013, 09:02 AM   #828
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I used to date grad student from Pitt. Once, she organized a hiking trip to the Laurel Highlands of PA.
At one of the overlooks one of the other grad students asked her "why do the trees keep changing color"(on the opposite mountain).


It was the shadows from the clouds rolling by...
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:53 AM   #829
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When I was attending Penn State I used to work at a garage four nights a week.

Now I've met plenty of good engineers from Penn State - ones who were involved with mechanical things outside their studies - but one day a student came up to the garage pushing his bicycle.

Small talk led to him stating he was studying engineering. The reason for his visit was that his rear tire was flat. In short order I found a nail or something in his tire. I pointed it out and asked if he had a tube with him (I was an avid cyclist, so I could change it for him, and fast, at no cost to him). He said no, but that he didn't think he needed one.

He asked if I had any duct tape. I inquired as to why, and he told me he was just going to wrap the outside of the tire with it, then hope it held air. I explained to him what an inner-tube does, and how it must be punctured inside the tire since we couldn't get the tire to hold air, but he maintained his stance.

Not one to argue too much with stupidity, I gave him some duct tape and watched the ensuing failure.

What is really sad about this is that there is a good chance an English and Communications major (like ... me) knew more about the engineering world around him than do a good portion of engineering students.

Fast forward years to where I'm working for a large military contractor and got to see the end-results (failures, or failures waiting to happen) from 'book smart' engineers of a company so large that it had to hire certain percentages of all types just to fill personnel quotas, then the end-results of the contraptions they'd come up with that needed fixed later.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:37 AM   #830
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WTF is it with Kawasaki dealers?

After reading this thread, decided to call around to a few, and ask them what was involved in the 7500 mile service for my Concours 14. (I try to never ask questions if I don't already know the answers, and this was no exception.)

NOT ONE dealer listed the correct service points, as per the owner's manual or the shop manual direct from Kawasaki.

I got quoted prices ranging from $300 to over $1000, once I informed them that the book says it needs spark plugs and a TB sync. 2 dealers claimed "None of that is necessary. Just change the oil instead."

Sure, buddy, you do that on YOUR bike. I'm leaving for a 2 week, 7000+ mile trip across the US and back (keep an eye on the ride reports threads, will post all about it there soon) and wanted this bike to be in perfect order before I leave.

Assholes...this is why I go to a guy who works out of his home garage. Charges me $40/hour. I've had him do everything from mounting tyres to complete fork rebuilds, engine seal replacements, and so on. The man is so incredibly meticulous, you can eat off the floor in that garage. Fans of TopGear will get this analogy: this guy is the James May of bike mechanics.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:44 AM   #831
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Originally Posted by LoneTraveler View Post
... The man is so incredibly meticulous, you can eat off the floor in that garage...
What's for lunch?
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:05 PM   #832
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Originally Posted by LoneTraveler View Post
..........., once I informed them that the book says it needs spark plugs and a TB sync. 2 dealers claimed "None of that is necessary. Just change the oil instead."............
So two dealers that were being honest and telling you that from their experience they could save you $$$ were jerks???

I am with them, plugs at 7.5k, in a modern engine is ridiculous. Same with throttle sync, yes in the old days of individual cables the sync was needed more frequent, but modern linkages seldom go out of adjustment.

Plugs in a modern engine should go 30K +

Another case of damned if you do, damned if you don't
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:47 PM   #833
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Originally Posted by PFFOG View Post
So two dealers that were being honest and telling you that from their experience they could save you $$$ were jerks???

I am with them, plugs at 7.5k, in a modern engine is ridiculous. Same with throttle sync, yes in the old days of individual cables the sync was needed more frequent, but modern linkages seldom go out of adjustment.

Plugs in a modern engine should go 30K +

Another case of damned if you do, damned if you don't
And what happens if there is a warranty claim? I'm pretty sure Kawasaki knows what keeps their engines happy, and will be glad to void a warranty if their service schedule isn't followed. FWIW you can (sometimes) get warranty coverage on a faulty component after the warranty has expired, but only if you have the maintenance records to back up the claim.

It's the customers call to make, but how many customers know to ask exactly what the service department does during routine service? I prefer dealing with shops that will give the customer options, and explain the benefits of each option.
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:59 PM   #834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneTraveler View Post
WTF is it with Kawasaki dealers?

After reading this thread, decided to call around to a few, and ask them what was involved in the 7500 mile service for my Concours 14. (I try to never ask questions if I don't already know the answers, and this was no exception.)

NOT ONE dealer listed the correct service points, as per the owner's manual or the shop manual direct from Kawasaki.

I got quoted prices ranging from $300 to over $1000, once I informed them that the book says it needs spark plugs and a TB sync. 2 dealers claimed "None of that is necessary. Just change the oil instead."

Sure, buddy, you do that on YOUR bike. I'm leaving for a 2 week, 7000+ mile trip across the US and back (keep an eye on the ride reports threads, will post all about it there soon) and wanted this bike to be in perfect order before I leave.

Assholes...this is why I go to a guy who works out of his home garage. Charges me $40/hour. I've had him do everything from mounting tyres to complete fork rebuilds, engine seal replacements, and so on. The man is so incredibly meticulous, you can eat off the floor in that garage. Fans of TopGear will get this analogy: this guy is the James May of bike mechanics.

Address please.
No not yours, the meticulous mechanic.
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Old 07-24-2013, 06:53 PM   #835
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Originally Posted by PFFOG View Post
So two dealers that were being honest and telling you that from their experience they could save you $$$ were jerks???

I am with them, plugs at 7.5k, in a modern engine is ridiculous. Same with throttle sync, yes in the old days of individual cables the sync was needed more frequent, but modern linkages seldom go out of adjustment.

Plugs in a modern engine should go 30K +

Another case of damned if you do, damned if you don't
I keep bikes for a long time, and put a TON of miles on them. I am so ridiculously anal-retentive about maintenance that I will happily change my oil every 500 miles if that's what the book calls for.

A dealer that does not know what actual service needs to be performed, and these are managers telling me this too, not some 18 year old kid, does not bode well to me. I have spoken to dealers from New Jersey to California (for the road trip next month) and out of the 12 or so that I called, fully 2/3 of them had no idea what they were talking about when it came to basic maintenance on this bike. It's shameful.

I paid $13k of my ridiculously hard-earned money (and I do mean hard: working 60-70 hour weeks is working hard) for this motorcycle and I'll be DAMNED if some shit-for-brains high school dropout is going to lay a FINGER on it. So yes, they're jerks.

The LAST thing I need is for Kawasaki to turn around a few years from now when some random issue comes up and say "Well LoneTraveler, since you didn't have your spark plugs changed or your TBs synced, we're not going to cover this repair." Think it won't happen? Companies do this all the time. They exist to make money, since that's all that ever truly matters. NO ONE stands behind their product anymore unless you play by THEIR rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k-moe View Post
And what happens if there is a warranty claim? I'm pretty sure Kawasaki knows what keeps their engines happy, and will be glad to void a warranty if their service schedule isn't followed. FWIW you can (sometimes) get warranty coverage on a faulty component after the warranty has expired, but only if you have the maintenance records to back up the claim.

It's the customers call to make, but how many customers know to ask exactly what the service department does during routine service? I prefer dealing with shops that will give the customer options, and explain the benefits of each option.
I bought 3 years of extended warranty for this bike. After all the little issues I had with my previous C10 (due entirely to NEGLECT by previous owners) I decided it was best to cover my ass, lest I find myself on the side of the road again at 3am with failed ignition coils, 100 miles from home, and looking forward to a hideously expensive and complicated repair. I don't want to leave anything to chance on this.

I live by the Atticus Finch rule of interrogation: Never ask a question you don't already know the answer to.

/endrant
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Old 07-25-2013, 05:28 AM   #836
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And what happens if there is a warranty claim? ..................

Zip, nada, nothing. It gets covered, unless they can prove that the failure was a DIRECT cause of lack of maintenance. I repeat plugs in a modern engine at 7.5K is absurd!

The VOID warranty is a false, to not cover an item THEY have to prove that it was a direct result of something you did or didn't do.


Heck the old 2 strokes use to go 15K between plug changes, many new cars recommend 60K before changing plugs.

As far as the manufacturer recommendations on service, yes sometimes they just update the old charts, the 7.5K plug change interval is probably from the 70's Mach I 2 smoker manual, just never updated.

My point is everybody bitches that dealers try to rip them off and that maintenance costs are too great, but when you run into a dealer that is trying to use his experience (and common sense) to provide proper service and save you some $$ , and you call them incompetent!

Like i said, damned if you do, damned if you don't. If I didn't do all my own work, I would be happy to have a dealer save me some $$ by not doing frivolous work, while you are pissed they are not as anal retentive as you. An maybe the 2/3 of the dealers you slam, actually use their expertise to do what actually NEEDS to be done, not blindly follow a chart.


I am glad you have a good mechanic, but ask him about how long plugs should last, bet he does not say 7.5K miles!
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Old 07-25-2013, 06:05 AM   #837
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Originally Posted by PFFOG View Post
The VOID warranty is a false, to not cover an item THEY have to prove that it was a direct result of something you did or didn't do.


Heck the old 2 strokes use to go 15K between plug changes, many new cars recommend 60K before changing plugs.
100% TRUE statement, there is a law in regards to this. Google Magnuson Moss Warranty Act

My 2009 Lancer suggests spark plug change at 100k.
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Old 07-25-2013, 07:33 AM   #838
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And what happens if there is a warranty claim? I'm pretty sure Kawasaki knows what keeps their engines happy, and will be glad to void a warranty if their service schedule isn't followed. FWIW you can (sometimes) get warranty coverage on a faulty component after the warranty has expired, but only if you have the maintenance records to back up the claim.
And you're probably one of those guys who believes that you have to take your vehicle to the dealer to service it to maintain your warranty...

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Old 07-25-2013, 07:36 AM   #839
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And you're probably one of those guys who believes that you have to take your vehicle to the dealer to service it to maintain your warranty...

Moss-Magnusson exists to prevent manufacturers from denying warranty claims if service isn't performed at their dealers, fortunately. Unfortunately, your average off-the-street sheeple don't know this.
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Old 07-25-2013, 07:55 AM   #840
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Moss Magnusen does protect the consumer by allowing anyone to do required maintenance. It does not, however, let a consumer slide by and not perform the required maintenance items. Yes, manufacturers do have to prove that a failure was due to improper maintenance in order to void a warranty, but if you want to challenge the manufacturer's findings you might be spending money on a lawyer. It's foolish to not follow the published maintenance schedule (and keep records) when your machine is still covered by a warranty.

FYI: I have tanen three vehicles to dealerships, on four occasions, over 30 years. Three trips were to have recall work done, and the fourth was for a warranty claim. The Regional service rep tried to deny my claim, citing improper maintenance. A quick follow up with my logbook, and receipts for consumables, took care of that.
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