ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-25-2013, 08:11 AM   #841
PFFOG
Richard Alps-aholic
 
PFFOG's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Western NY, further from NYC than 6 entire states
Oddometer: 1,921
Quote:
Originally Posted by k-moe View Post
Moss Magnusen does protect the consumer by allowing anyone to do required maintenance. It does not, however, let a consumer slide by and not perform the required maintenance items. Yes, manufacturers do have to prove that a failure was due to improper maintenance in order to void a warranty, but if you want to challenge the manufacturer's findings you might be spending money on a lawyer. It's foolish to not follow the published maintenance schedule (and keep records) when your machine is still covered by a warranty.

FYI: I have tanen three vehicles to dealerships, on four occasions, over 30 years. Three trips were to have recall work done, and the fourth was for a warranty claim. The Regional service rep tried to deny my claim, citing improper maintenance. A quick follow up with my logbook, and receipts for consumables, took care of that.
We are on the same page, my vehicles only see outside service for our mandatory state safety inspections.

What I took exception to was the condemnation of a dealer due to the fact he suggested that, in his experience, that the OP could save some cash by not doing unnecessary work. My bet is the service intervals are the same for all their 4 strokes, from highly abused sport bikes to the cruisers, one lungers to I-4's. Not much time and engineering goes into individualizing the charts, it is a one size fits all generally. As I said, I would like to know what the OP's independent mechanic recommends, or more important how ofter he changed them in his own bike.
__________________
Tuscany 2010
Maritime Alps and Vosges

Richard
PFFOG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 08:28 AM   #842
k-moe
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Oddometer: 2,089
FWIW: I changed sparkplugs in my '83 GMC on two occasions. Once when I bought the truck in '91, and again when I sold it earlier this year. Inspect, clean and re-gap (if still serviceable), reinstall. The plug in my wood chipper is almost 40 years old
k-moe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 08:43 AM   #843
LoneTraveler
Captain Zoomtastic
 
LoneTraveler's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Location: Garden State
Oddometer: 439
Quote:
Originally Posted by k-moe View Post
Moss Magnusen does protect the consumer by allowing anyone to do required maintenance. It does not, however, let a consumer slide by and not perform the required maintenance items. Yes, manufacturers do have to prove that a failure was due to improper maintenance in order to void a warranty, but if you want to challenge the manufacturer's findings you might be spending money on a lawyer. It's foolish to not follow the published maintenance schedule (and keep records) when your machine is still covered by a warranty.

FYI: I have tanen three vehicles to dealerships, on four occasions, over 30 years. Three trips were to have recall work done, and the fourth was for a warranty claim. The Regional service rep tried to deny my claim, citing improper maintenance. A quick follow up with my logbook, and receipts for consumables, took care of that.
I have a giant plastic folder, got it at Staples, for about $8. I keep all the receipts organised in there. Tyres, oil, filters, etc. Everything is in there. If they ever try to claim I didn't do something, I have spreadsheets with the mileage, what work was done, etc.
__________________
2000 Concours - Gone, but not forgotten.
2012 Concours 14 - Concours 2.0

SuperTour 1
LoneTraveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 10:05 AM   #844
The Jerk
Bring us some fresh wine!
 
The Jerk's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Oddometer: 2,479
Quote:
Originally Posted by PFFOG View Post
Zip, nada, nothing. It gets covered, unless they can prove that the failure was a DIRECT cause of lack of maintenance. I repeat plugs in a modern engine at 7.5K is absurd!

The VOID warranty is a false, to not cover an item THEY have to prove that it was a direct result of something you did or didn't do.
That's what the law says but what are you gonna do when they tell you to go pound sand despite the law? Hire a lawyer for $10K and sue them?
The Jerk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 10:14 AM   #845
The Jerk
Bring us some fresh wine!
 
The Jerk's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Oddometer: 2,479
Quote:
Originally Posted by PFFOG View Post
What I took exception to was the condemnation of a dealer due to the fact he suggested that, in his experience, that the OP could save some cash by not doing unnecessary work. My bet is the service intervals are the same for all their 4 strokes, from highly abused sport bikes to the cruisers, one lungers to I-4's. Not much time and engineering goes into individualizing the charts, it is a one size fits all generally. As I said, I would like to know what the OP's independent mechanic recommends, or more important how ofter he changed them in his own bike.
I agree with OP in the sense that I'll wager that the Kawasaki engineers who devised the factory maintenance schedule know a whole hell of a lot more about what the bike requires than some random dealer tech or manager who was not privy to the design, production, testing, manufacturing, and failure analysis that the motorcycle went through before being mass-produced.

And if, on the advice of the dealer, OP does not perform a Kawasaki-specified maintenance item and later has a problem with something related to that item, you can bet that the dealer sure as hell is all of a sudden gonna forget that conversation ever happened and Kawasaki will also (rightly) tell the customer "tough shit."

Kawasaki gave the owner a detailed maintenance schedule. If the owner doesn't follow it and something breaks as a result, that's sure as hell not Kawasaki's problem. "But the dealer said it wasn't necessary...." Hell the dealer didn't build the bike and the dealer doesn't provide the warranty. Kawi would rightly tell him to get his money out of the dealer then and leave them alone. Or they should anyway
The Jerk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 10:34 AM   #846
Kafn8td
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: May 2012
Oddometer: 161
I work on my own bikes. I've never had one in to a dealer for service. They have however completed all recalls and warranty work. My FZ1 is still going strong with the new owner and has over 45,000 miles on it.

Of course I'm not one to blame a bolt coming loose or brake pads or rotors wearing out early on the manufacturer or dealer. My current Speed Triple and KTM SMT have a generous assortment of aftermarket parts on them, and they have never been mentioned during warranty or recall work. In fact the KTM guys wanted to know how I got rid of the off/on throttle when they test rode it. I told them to pull the secondary flies and remove the SAS. That, along with a retune and Rottweiler filter take care of 90% of the low speed fueling issues.

I did ask a new tech at the YamaSuzukHondTriumpVictory dealer to turn off the needs service light for me last time I was in buying stuff. He refused saying that they can only do it if they do the work. I chuckled and waited until one of the old staff was there. He asks "did you do the service?" I said yes, he said no problem.

If the engineers and designers know best, why is there multiple choices of oils and a million aftermarket parts? I sure hope those that say engineers know best don't modify their bike in any way. More comfy seat? Nope engineers know best.
Kafn8td is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 11:25 AM   #847
oz97tj
Studly Adventurer
 
oz97tj's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2012
Location: Fenton, MI
Oddometer: 813
The law is supposed to protect the consumer so they get their shit fixed. However, if the dealer refuses the work then you're left with a legal battle.

I have a lifted Jeep. Throwout bearing, known issue, went out at 12k miles. It was fixed the first time. Happened again at 28k. Dealership refused the work due to the larger tires. Took it to another dealer that claimed the issue was in the front axle. I took it back home and pulled the front driveshaft and the axle shafts to prove the axle wasn't the cause. They still claimed the axle even though the part they claimed was causing the issue couldn't possibly even be moving with those other parts removed.

In the end, I just swapped the throwout myself. Its a cheap part but I didn't feel like removing the tranny. A few hours later it was fixed. The legal hassle of trying to get the dealer to fix it wasn't worth it.
__________________
'13 BMW 1200 GSW
'05 Honda ST1300
oz97tj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 12:18 PM   #848
LoneTraveler
Captain Zoomtastic
 
LoneTraveler's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Location: Garden State
Oddometer: 439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafn8td View Post
If the engineers and designers know best, why is there multiple choices of oils and a million aftermarket parts? I sure hope those that say engineers know best don't modify their bike in any way. More comfy seat? Nope engineers know best.
Three words: Free market capitalism.

Just because a dozen companies make exhausts that fit your bike, doesn't necessarily mean that they're 100% compatible. Just ask the folks who bought Delkevics and needed to drill holes or cut mounts to get them to fit.

Same thing goes for oils: the manual for my Concours 14 says to use a "good quality oil." That leaves it ambiguous. Depending on where in the world one lives, you may not have access to AMsoil, or other such products.

Companies can't tell people NOT to make accessories for their products (with Apple being the possible exception to that rule) so pretty much anyone can make anything for any vehicle, and sell it. Problem is, a manufacturer can't possibly support all those different mods, parts, etc.

Changing a luggage rack will not in any way affect or cause damage to a transmission. Running car oil and different sized wheels might, depending on factors such as what load that engine was designed to take, what kind of rolling resistance was calculated for best durability, and so on and so forth.

I'm not an engineer, and I suspect that the folks who are incredulous to the manual stating a spark plug needs to be changed at 7500 miles aren't either (at least not powertrain engineers for one of the largest companies in the world, which Kawasaki is. They make a lot more than just motorcycles.)

So, YMMV. You can do things your way, I'll do things my way. We'll see whose bike lasts longer. To the guys talking about 30k miles, 45k miles: that's chump change for a touring bike. That kind of mileage on most sport bikes is about half way through their intended lifecycle. It's rare to see sport bikes with much more than 80k on the clock, yet we see Concours', FJRs, Gold Wings, RTs, etc, all with well over 100k all the time. If my last Connie is any indication, I rode that nearly 60k in 4 years. I intend to run this bike 200k plus, since I KNOW it's being maintained properly.
__________________
2000 Concours - Gone, but not forgotten.
2012 Concours 14 - Concours 2.0

SuperTour 1
LoneTraveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 01:55 PM   #849
The Jerk
Bring us some fresh wine!
 
The Jerk's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Oddometer: 2,479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafn8td View Post
If the engineers and designers know best, why is there multiple choices of oils and a million aftermarket parts? I sure hope those that say engineers know best don't modify their bike in any way. More comfy seat? Nope engineers know best.
That's a distortion of my point. I merely said that the guys that designed and built the bike are in the best position to determine the maintenance intervals for the thing compared to dealer types who, as has been shown throughout this thread, often don't know shit about shit.

Multiple oils? Marketing I guess. As long as it meets the spec prescribed by the ENGINEERS then I'm quite certain it doesn't make a damn bit of difference to the bike which one you use.
The Jerk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 06:07 PM   #850
PFFOG
Richard Alps-aholic
 
PFFOG's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Western NY, further from NYC than 6 entire states
Oddometer: 1,921
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jerk View Post
I agree with OP in the sense that I'll wager that the Kawasaki engineers who devised the factory maintenance schedule know a whole hell of a lot more about what the bike requires than some random dealer tech or manager who was not privy to the design, production, testing, manufacturing, and failure analysis that the motorcycle went through before being mass-produced..............
Well as someone that started taking apart engines 4-1/2 decades ago at the age of about 12, and a Mechanical Engineer that has worked in manufacturing, all I can say is yup, they got you hook, line and sinker. My bet, little if ANY engineering time goes into the service recommendations, that is done by legal, a technical writer, and based on a lot of legacy.

I don't have a problem with the OP being anal retentive,fearful and OCD, that is his business. But I do take issue with him slamming a dealer/dealers and calling them incompetent. All he had to do is tell them he preferred to follow all the recommendations, I am sure they would have been glad to take his hard earned $$. Like i said, damned if they do, damned if they don't.

My sentiment is the dealer was trying to provide reasonable SERVICE, and save the guy from spending $$$ foolishly, and the dealer got kicked in the balls for being a nice guy, and trying to run an honest business.
__________________
Tuscany 2010
Maritime Alps and Vosges

Richard

PFFOG screwed with this post 07-25-2013 at 06:12 PM
PFFOG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 06:23 PM   #851
LoneTraveler
Captain Zoomtastic
 
LoneTraveler's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Location: Garden State
Oddometer: 439
Quote:
Originally Posted by PFFOG View Post
Well as someone that started taking apart engines 4-1/2 decades ago at the age of about 12, and a Mechanical Engineer that has worked in manufacturing, all I can say is yup, they got you hook, line and sinker. My bet, little if ANY engineering time goes into the service recommendations, that is done by legal, a technical writer, and based on a lot of legacy.

I don't have a problem with the OP being anal retentive,fearful and OCD, that is his business. But I do take issue with him slamming a dealer/dealers and calling them incompetent. All he had to do is tell them he preferred to follow all the recommendations, I am sure they would have been glad to take his hard earned $$. Like i said, damned if they do, damned if they don't.

My sentiment is the dealer was trying to provide reasonable SERVICE, and save the guy from spending $$$ foolishly, and the dealer got kicked in the balls for being a nice guy, and trying to run an honest business.
I am not fearful. I speak from experience, with companies trying to deny warranty claims based on vehicles not being serviced a particular way.

I think that any dealer that does not have the proper manuals, tools, or properly trained staff to service a vehicle that they sell is not only incompetent, but a disgrace to the product and to their industry.

There are some dealers out there that do amazing work, charge fair prices to do it, and would get 100% of my business were they not several states away. New Jersey and the surrounding states have proven to be somewhat of a black hole when it comes to motorcycle service. There is only one Kawasaki dealer that I would bring my bike to in the whole state for any sort of work, but getting a spot in line can take quite some time.

If you experienced what I and several other friends and acquaintances have with some of the dealers around here, you'd run away screaming. Maybe where you live, the dealers actually care about the quality of service, and put effort into doing the job right the first time. Not the case in New Jersey or New York, with very few exceptions.

So I go to an independent mech who does very good work and doesn't charge an arm and a leg to do it. At least with him, I know the job is done right.
__________________
2000 Concours - Gone, but not forgotten.
2012 Concours 14 - Concours 2.0

SuperTour 1
LoneTraveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 07:57 PM   #852
Thanantos
Ride hard.
 
Thanantos's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Oddometer: 3,545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motomedic View Post
And you're probably one of those guys who believes that you have to take your vehicle to the dealer to service it to maintain your warranty...

You do if you own a BMW I'm told.
__________________
1999 DR350SE

2013 V-Strom
Thanantos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 08:22 PM   #853
PFFOG
Richard Alps-aholic
 
PFFOG's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Western NY, further from NYC than 6 entire states
Oddometer: 1,921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanantos View Post
You do if you own a BMW I'm told.

I have owned 4 BMW's and they have been to the dealer exactly ZERO times for service, in the combined 70-90k, aside from 1 recall.
__________________
Tuscany 2010
Maritime Alps and Vosges

Richard
PFFOG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 08:30 PM   #854
Thanantos
Ride hard.
 
Thanantos's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Oddometer: 3,545
Quote:
Originally Posted by PFFOG View Post
I have owned 4 BMW's and they have been to the dealer exactly ZERO times for service, in the combined 70-90k, aside from 1 recall.
I should qualify that.

I'm told that if you want to keep your 3 year BMW warranty you need to have all service done on time and at the dealer.

I could easily be wrong. Anyone?
__________________
1999 DR350SE

2013 V-Strom
Thanantos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 08:38 PM   #855
JimVonBaden
"Cool" Aid!
 
JimVonBaden's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Alexandria, VA
Oddometer: 48,125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanantos View Post
I should qualify that.

I'm told that if you want to keep your 3 year BMW warranty you need to have all service done on time and at the dealer.

I could easily be wrong. Anyone?
No, not true. You need to do the all the services according to the service schedule. Keep records and receipts. WHO does the work is not relevant to warranty!

Jim
JimVonBaden is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 11:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014