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Old 07-28-2013, 12:36 PM   #886
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^^ Wow! ^^
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:34 PM   #887
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Originally Posted by squonker View Post
^^ Wow! ^^
Not really, there are a LOT of very large very successful dealers out there, who are no better than street thugs. I ended a 20 year career as a service manager when one of these dealers bought out our small highly reputable and profitable dealership. Onced they moved us under the corporate umbrella and location I could not believe what was condoned and rewarded.

Anything went to sell a car or make $$, bold faced lies, promises that were never fulfilled, I saw a service manager for one of the other brands RAPE a 70+ year old lady, to the tune of over $1000 for unneeded repairs on her car, after she told him her husband, who use to take care of the car had recently died!!! And he BRAGGED about it!!!

All bringing it up to the powers to be was label you as "not a team player". Dealership is still successful, but does so by spending big $$$ advertising, because they can't keep customers, so they need to lure new ones in the door.
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Old 07-28-2013, 02:10 PM   #888
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Onced they moved us under the corporate umbrella and location I could not believe what was condoned and rewarded.
Exactly.... I hadn't really realized this before, but at many dealerships the service writer is paid a salary and commission based on how much service and parts he sells the customer. If the 24,000 mile check up is simply oil and filter, and he tells the customer it also requires plugs, air filter, transmission fluid replacement, blinker fluid topped off and hoosendorfer adjuster replaced, then he gets a percentage of that and any other needless parts he can con the customer into buying.

As owners of vehicles, be they car, truck or motorcycle, it's now up to us to know what is required at service intervals and to make sure to ask dealers just for that. My local Dodge dealer has a chart on the wall showing what is required at each major mileage interval, "according to the manufacturer". It's a lot more than what the owners manual lists for the same intervals.
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Old 07-28-2013, 02:54 PM   #889
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Originally Posted by jeepkevin View Post
Wife gives me the ok to go out and purchase another bike. I run down to my local dealer a roll one out of the line up. I had been doing my research for months, wanted to check a couple key things. Spent about 15 mins. looking it over, then roll it up to the salesmans desk. He finally greets me and asks what he can do. I tell him I'm ready to purchase a bike. He then tells me to let him know when I am serious. Ummmm!!
I roll bike back down to where I got it, put it back and left. I guess the other 2 bikes I bought there in the past 12 months didn't qualify me as a serious buyer. "Let me know when your serious" Come on dude!! Your here to encourage sales. Now you just lost one. I held off buying a bike, thought something was just not meant to be. I returned to that dealer about 6 months later, all new emplyees. No wonder.
I did finally get my bike!!! Silly wife was then pissed cause I showed up with it without asking again!! I got permission once, figured that was good for a long time. She saw it different.

that is a freaky story. and I relate! which is a crying shame actually.

my story might be a bit long winded... I understand some hate that, it's all good, if you do don't bother reading and move along. (I can type fairly quick, hopefully be done with this and out the door in short order)

very early 80's visited a florida dealership and was checking out bike (iirc a Yamaha seca 750?) while checking it out the salesman asked about my intended riding... I replied I was looking for a bike to ride around the US etc. he brought up the subject of chain and other maintenance and that opened my eyes significantly to the point where I decided it wasn't for me and bowed out instead purchasing a used 69 MGC convertible heading out on the road of life...

flash forward a couple years and I am visiting a BMW dealership in san diego... where a shaft driven motorcycle caught my eye. the salesman seemed a bit snooty while I discussed my intended use of driving around the US, mexico, Canada et al and then he asked what bike I was currently riding... I told him I didn't have a bike. he looked at me a bit off and said something about coming back when I was serious then he left to go talk to others... dude was an ass and the encounter threw me off the scent for some time. I regret not calling him out on it... as I would for sure now. I don't regret eventually picking up a convertible Jeep instead but I do regret not having purchased a versatile motorcycle beforehand for a variety of reasons.
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Old 07-28-2013, 04:26 PM   #890
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[QUOTE=ChaoSS402;21966661]
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Originally Posted by 1911fan View Post
Visalia. Normal hourly rate, I think they just take a long time to do the service.

Less time than it takes me, actually, but then, I'm rather inexperienced at it and have move slowly and carefully. From what I hear, a lot of dealers in other places charge about 300 for the same service.

I actually have to disagree with you here. They took his money, and agreed to give him a certain part. If they did not honor that agreement, than a bit of trickery could very well be in order to get his money back. I think it would be different if they had offered to take the return and do a free oil change, for example, in exchange for taking down the reviews, then I would agree that he should not have reneged. However, he was just getting them to return the money that they basically scammed from them, so trickery seems pretty fair.


I think it's pretty fair for a high priced bike to have a more expensive service. For example, I have a BMW K1200LT. In order to do pretty much anything, you have to remove the fairings, and in order to do that, you must remove the mirrors. The mirrors are fairly easy to damage when removing, and the dealers charge about 400 dollars apiece for them, which means their cost must be fairly high. That's just one example of the many expensive things that can go wrong while working on it, things that the dealership would then be responsible for. They have to cover their own rear ends.
It has nothing to do with trickery. It has everything to do with them doing anything they could to keep my money, and me doing anything I could to get it back.

Does the Better Business Bureau still have a complaint listed? Yes, they do, because a business is under no circumstances permitted to demand that a customer retract a complaint in order to move forward. I told them they had their chance, they blew it.

I left the reviews up so that others would not get scammed like I did. Have I screwed that business out of money? Probably. Do I give a flying fuck? Not at all. They DESERVE to lose money for how they treat their customers. So does ANY business that tries to pull that kind of shit on a fellow hard-working American.

As for my comment about pricing for service, it follows a logic such that, if you buy a KLR, for example, it's a simple bike. It doesn't need huge overly complicated services to keep it running (except maybe the doohickey) and as such should in no way cost $100/hour + to maintain. A R1200RT is another story, same for the Concours 14, and so on.

I only go to dealers for service when I absolutely have to. There's one very good Kawasaki shop in NJ and I'd be happy to give them the service business, but most of the work that needs to be done on my bike, I can do myself. For more time-consuming work, I like to go to my mechanic, whom I've been going to for the past 4 years. He's never done wrong by me, and as a few of the other readers of this thread have asked, I've PMd his info to them.
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Old 07-28-2013, 04:51 PM   #891
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post

99% of the time, doing your own results in a more thorough and precision job, and you KNOW the quality of the work.

IF, however, you are not mechanically inclined, have no time, or just do not want to do the work yourself, by all means, pay the dealer!

Jim

could not support any post I have seen on this forum any more than this one.

what has sucked in my experience is that over the years the few times I did take a vehicle in for work only twice did I get results that I felt were satisfactory. anything from having the wrong size oil filter crammed on a car during a simple oil change to having a variety of bolts left laying in the engine compartment during a timing belt change. I have a difficult time trusting mechanics... I actually wish I could, but the fact is I KNOW BETTER! combine that with the ability to do it myself and the monetary incentive.. it just dictates I do the work myself. the first time may be annoying or require the acquisition of tools, but after the first time things should be all down hill.

so far in the last couple months, besides basic oil change I have changed transmission and fd gear oils, spark plugs, adjust the valves and changed both front and rear tires. the most trying was the tire change... the first a pain, the second a whole lot easier. really all basic and straightforward for anybody with fairly minimal mechanical ability...

now I also have the benefit of having the knowledge and experience found in the comforts of my garage that may be useful in the field if or when necessary. (flat tire etc)

edit: after having performed the work a couple times I am finding adjusting the valves almost fun in some twisted sort of manner.
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:40 PM   #892
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Originally Posted by KoolBreeze View Post
that is a freaky story. and I relate! which is a crying shame actually.

my story might be a bit long winded... I understand some hate that, it's all good, if you do don't bother reading and move along. (I can type fairly quick, hopefully be done with this and out the door in short order)

very early 80's visited a florida dealership and was checking out bike (iirc a Yamaha seca 750?) while checking it out the salesman asked about my intended riding... I replied I was looking for a bike to ride around the US etc. he brought up the subject of chain and other maintenance and that opened my eyes significantly to the point where I decided it wasn't for me and bowed out instead purchasing a used 69 MGC convertible heading out on the road of life...

flash forward a couple years and I am visiting a BMW dealership in san diego... where a shaft driven motorcycle caught my eye. the salesman seemed a bit snooty while I discussed my intended use of driving around the US, mexico, Canada et al and then he asked what bike I was currently riding... I told him I didn't have a bike. he looked at me a bit off and said something about coming back when I was serious then he left to go talk to others... dude was an ass and the encounter threw me off the scent for some time. I regret not calling him out on it... as I would for sure now. I don't regret eventually picking up a convertible Jeep instead but I do regret not having purchased a versatile motorcycle beforehand for a variety of reasons.
XJ750 Seca was shaft drive.
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Old 07-28-2013, 06:07 PM   #893
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XJ750 Seca was shaft drive.

stand corrected then. couldn't have been the Seca... whatever it was it had chain drive. I still remember thinking that oiling a chain every 500 miles or so seemed too much of a bother to deal with and I wasn't desiring to go down that route. (I expect the reality is probably less of a hassle) thought it was a Yamaha and the name Seca stood out in memory. perhaps because later I learned it was the bike I should've been looking at all along. don't know, but it was chain drive Japanese standard motorcycle in the 750cc range.
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Old 07-28-2013, 06:12 PM   #894
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[QUOTE=LoneTraveler;21973922]
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Originally Posted by ChaoSS402 View Post
............ There's one very good Kawasaki shop in NJ and I'd be happy to give them the service business, but most of the work that needs to be done on my bike, I can do myself. For more time-consuming work, I like to go to my mechanic, whom I've been going to for the past 4 years. He's never done wrong by me, and as a few of the other readers of this thread have asked, I've PMd his info to them.
Why PM, post it up!! You want to keep a good dealer in business, free advertising helps a lot, have a good experience, let the world know as a way to say thanks!
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Old 07-28-2013, 06:54 PM   #895
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I have found that to be less true than I would have thought. When shopping for autos I could purchase a new SuperDuty for the same or less than one a year or two old. Manufacturer incentives and the margins salespersons were working with made the new vehicle very close to the used price. People with used vehicles that are only a year or two old have to get a certain price due to their loan (payoff). What I've experienced is this amount is very close to the purchase price of a new vehicle because they are mostly paying interest the first year or two, not much to principal, so they owe a significant portion of the loan to principal. I found this to be the case when purchasing my wifes auto recently as well.

People talk about a huge depreciation hit by driving off the lot. My experience has been less than one hundred dollars for every month used for the first couple years. After that it starts going down faster until it levels out a bit. I find price is more related perceived life of the vehicle (i.e., mileage and then years). If you're buying used, it seems 5+ year old vehicles, but even 8+ years are the best "deal" based on mileage/perceived life of the vehicle.
I am having the exact opposite experience right now. My aunt bought a '12 Subaru Impreza with all the goodies, plus extended warranty and a prepaid maint contract. She recently died, and the estate owes 29k to the bank even though she made 6 months of payments. If we're lucky, we can get 22 or 23 for it.

I'd be thrilled if we only lost $600 on it.
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Old 07-28-2013, 07:02 PM   #896
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[QUOTE=PFFOG;21974618]
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Why PM, post it up!! You want to keep a good dealer in business, free advertising helps a lot, have a good experience, let the world know as a way to say thanks!
Fair enough. It's Rizzon Cycle in Middlesex, NJ. I've sent a few folks there, all have had good experiences. They sell Kawasaki and Suzuki. Tiny little mom and pop shop, the showroom usually has one of each model on the floor, for the most part, and if they don't have it, they can get it.

Parts guys are really nice too. Service is excellent. Mark, their service manager, is a very honest and pleasant fellow. Can't say enough good things about the place. If you're in the market, check them out.
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Old 07-28-2013, 07:15 PM   #897
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The lack of practical knowledge in the workplace because everyone wants their kid to go to college with a degree.
It's not just that. Business doesn't want the expense of training employees. They want people to know what job is going to be needed and then go to school and hope by the time they graduate there won't be a glut.

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Old 07-28-2013, 07:19 PM   #898
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[QUOTE=LoneTraveler;21973922]
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Originally Posted by ChaoSS402 View Post

It has nothing to do with trickery. It has everything to do with them doing anything they could to keep my money, and me doing anything I could to get it back.

Does the Better Business Bureau still have a complaint listed? Yes, they do, because a business is under no circumstances permitted to demand that a customer retract a complaint in order to move forward. I told them they had their chance, they blew it.

I left the reviews up so that others would not get scammed like I did. Have I screwed that business out of money? Probably. Do I give a flying fuck? Not at all. They DESERVE to lose money for how they treat their customers. So does ANY business that tries to pull that kind of shit on a fellow hard-working American.

As for my comment about pricing for service, it follows a logic such that, if you buy a KLR, for example, it's a simple bike. It doesn't need huge overly complicated services to keep it running (except maybe the doohickey) and as such should in no way cost $100/hour + to maintain. A R1200RT is another story, same for the Concours 14, and so on.

I only go to dealers for service when I absolutely have to. There's one very good Kawasaki shop in NJ and I'd be happy to give them the service business, but most of the work that needs to be done on my bike, I can do myself. For more time-consuming work, I like to go to my mechanic, whom I've been going to for the past 4 years. He's never done wrong by me, and as a few of the other readers of this thread have asked, I've PMd his info to them.

the hourly rate has got little to do with the complexity of the bike and everything to do with the overheads of the dealership,which for a bmw shop and a kawasaki shop in the same town and same district are likely to be similar.Granted the BMW shop may have to purchase some special tools and or equipment for each new model
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Old 07-28-2013, 07:36 PM   #899
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Labor rates are NOT determined by the product being serviced.

The technician gets paid the same (shitty) hourly wage to work on a KLR or a C14. The shop's rent/lease/mortgage payment is the same if the bike being worked on is a KX80 or a Vulcan 2k. The electric company does not care if we are working on a BMW K1600LT or a Dong Fang. The uniform company does not care if the work is being performed on a Vespa or a Kymco. The Snap-on (or Mac, or Matco, or Cornwell, or Craftsman) tool salesman does not pay attention to the fact that I might be working on a Honda EU2000 generator or a GL1800. The time it takes to do a particular job will change, and as such the amount charged will be more or less, but the charge per man-hour does not.

Does your plumber charge more to replace the toilet in your house versus replacing the water heater in your condo? Does the electrician change his labor rate to install an outlet in your garage versus installing a chandelier on the dining room?
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Old 07-28-2013, 08:18 PM   #900
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It's not just that. Business doesn't want the expense of training employees. They want people to know what job is going to be needed and then go to school and hope by the time they graduate there won't be a glut.

Chad
This is precisely the position I was in when I graduated college: I studied to be a high school French teacher. When I started college, there were 30 some odd districts that were looking for French and German teachers. By the time I graduated, those programs were eliminated entirely. Now, I work in IT. So it goes...
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