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Old 09-14-2012, 09:34 AM   #136
disston
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Yes the idea here is to put the carbs in a state they will work in and then do the ignition timing. BTW, I meant to mention this and I might be too late but when putting the needles in the slides it is advisable to look into the tube area the needle is going into and determine what direction the clip is facing. These clips are small, they can be oriented any such way and if you place the needle in with the groves facing one way you get on the first notch, if you have the needle oriented another way it doesn't click into position until the second notch and you mean while think you are are on number one. A finer point maybe but entirely necessary to have the needles at the right depth.

I suppose the gas tank has been cleaned and the fuel lines are new or known good condition. If you are using filters on the lines they get changed when they are dirty. You can check the flow of the fuel to see that there isn't any unexpected blockage. Often a problem that's hard to diagnose is the carbs are just not getting enough gas because the lines are blocked or the petcocks have too many red tank liner chips in them.

I suppose the valves were set days ago?
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Old 09-14-2012, 10:17 AM   #137
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I set the needles in slot two according to the clymers manual.

I made sure the butterflies were marked as you mentioned. I made sure the diaphragm was on correctly and the plunger / valve move up and down freely.

gas is flowing fine and it has new inline filters that I installed after cleaning the tank and petcocks

MIx screw 1 turn out. idle 1.5 turns in.

The valves need to be set but I was under the impression this is something done with timing as you want the bike slightly warm. maybe Im crazy but I thought that was the case.

With this new set up the bike won't start, also the carb cleaner does nothing. Which is fine assuming we are heading in the right direction.

The problem is Gas. Its not getting gas. I can tell that much.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:40 AM   #138
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Well you are there. But I think it is out of time is why it now doesn't start. Is there gas in the float bowl of the carb? Then it has gas.

Valves are set when the engine is cold. Stone cold. This is pretty much SOP for air cooled engines of any type. Do you know how long ago these valves may have been set? It's maybe a mistake at this point to just assume they are set correctly but I guess we are going to do that. The bike was running earlier this week? Until messing with carbs and ignition?

I remember we talked about putting a Dyna III system on this bike? Don't do that yet. We should get it running first.

If the ignition points are too old or too worn there will be burn marks and metal transfer from one contact point to the other. New points are recommended for this procedure. Since I didn't mention this yesterday then I guess it is too late. But if you can see the points have this metal transfer from one tip to the other I recommend you get some new points. The problem is we have to set the gap and it is difficult to do if one tip is a hill and the other tip is a valley (common analogy for this issue).

You have to take the front engine cover off. Disco the battery to do this. Then reconnect the battery. The points are gapped with a feeler gauge. There is a smaller gauge that is part of the on board tool kit that works very well for this. Make sure the feeler gauge is clean and no grease or oil is depsited on the ignition points contacts The point gap is set at 0.40 mm. You set the gap when the points rubbing block is on a high part of the advance cam. There should be a little grease on the points cam wick or on the rubbing block. With out some grease the rubbing block can wear down too fast and this changes timing. You always set the point gap first. Point gap will affect timing. If you have a running engine, in tune, and the rubbing block wears too much the timing will be more and more retarded as the block wears. Closing the gap retards timing. If you open the gap it will advance timing. Once the point gap is set it is time to set the timing.

There is one screw that holds the points onto the timing plate. This screw is loosened to adjust the points.

This part of setting the timing is difficult to do because the advance unit is in the way of your fitting the feeler gauge into the contact area. We have all struggled with it but it is possible to get 'er done (as they say). If you are using a full size feeler gauge it is even more difficult. Tell me do you have the little one? I hope so.

By now we should be finished with the points gap. It is also called Dwell or Dwell Angle. It is a very most important part of the timing to have the gap or the Dwell Angle properly set. Too wide a gap causes higher speed misfires and too narrow a gap will miss at any speed. If the points gap is not correct to with in a certain amount the ignition will not work at all. A common problem with a non-runner is the screw was loose or the rubbing block wore away and the points closed up. If the points don't open the plugs don't fire.

So far we have only adjusted the points gap or Dwell and the ignition switch has remained off the entire time. There is no reason yet to turn on the ignition until we start to adjust the static timing.

We will next move on to static timing.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:23 PM   #139
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It is important to put a little bit of special points cam grease on the rubbing block or the felt of the points plate to avoid early wearing of the rubbing block. You probably don't have any Bosch Ft1v4 grease for the points cam. Or Malory cam grease. Or Echlin ML-1. So use any wheel bearing grease. and use only a tiny amount. Best to smear a little on the face of the felt. If you use too much it gets flung off and contaminates the contact points. This will cause an ignition failure and because you just replaced the points it will drive you nuts trying to figure out why.

After you have set the points gap or Dwell the bike may now start. Don't spend too much time doing this but give it one or two shots. If it runs you can put the light on it and set timing at the full advance mark with the engine running about 3000 rpm.

Timing is set by loosening the other two screws in the timing plate and the plate will then be able to rotate.

Let me know what happens at this point and we will cover static timing if need be. i think we will cover that anyway but the bike may now run once the gap is correct.

If setting the static timing and the Dwell doesn't get this started you will have to finally adjust the valve lash settings and start again with a new set of points. At this point the only thing that could keep this bike from running is the points are too burnt up.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:27 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tete View Post

The problem is Gas. Its not getting gas. I can tell that much.
This is a very common misconception. I read everything you've said so far different. I see the problem is ignition. I'm actually pretty sure of it. Is there gas in the float bowls? Then there is gas. Are the clamps on the rubber connections to the carb/cylinders tight? Then there can't be a big air leak.
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Old 09-14-2012, 01:32 PM   #141
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You are going to need your new test light, a 6 mm hex wrench (part of the on board tool kit) and a good screwdriver. The cover is still off from when we set the points gap. And the engine didn't run or it runs so poorly that we can't set the timing yet with the timing light.

The test light alligator clip is connected to the condenser connection. Either the part that holds the points wire or the black wire (this goes to the right coil). Sometimes one of the wires has to be loosened a little to get the alligator clip in there but it will fit and the wires must stay connected. Also do not allow the alligator clip to contact the engine case or any source of ground.

The rubber plug is removed from the timing window. The pointy end of the test light is wedged into the fins of the cylinder and positioned so the light can be seen at the same time you are looking in the timing window. I usually use the throttle cable as part of the restraint on the test light so the light stays in contact with the cylinder fin and the light will conduct electricity from the condenser to the cylinder fin. You may have to play with this a little to get the light to stay in position and not damage the throttle cable. You can't bend or place too much pressure on that cable.

The way that points/condenser ignitions work is that they fire the plug when they open. They fire at the moment of opening, not the moment of closing. When the points are closed the coils are being charged because the electricity is flowing through the points to ground. This time the points are closed is Dwell and the amount of time the points are closed is an important setting we did when we set the gap.

With your test light hooked up as described when the points are closed the light will be off because the electricity will have an easier path to ground through the points. When the points open the electricity will loose it's path to ground through the points and light the test light flowing to ground through this path.

While watching the timing marks in the timing window the engine is rotated, with the ignition on. Rotate the engine with the 6 mm hex wrench in the alternator bolt. The trans must be in neutral. The light should come on when the S mark is in the center of the window.

Since this bike does not have an electronic ignition or a booster box on it you can remove the plugs to make it easier to turn the engine with the hex wrench. Some riders do this same operation by putting the trans in gear and rotating the rear wheel to turn the engine over. You may prefer that method but I have a Reynold's Ride Off Stand on my bike and it's not intuitive for me to put 2x4s under the centerstand to get the rear wheel off the ground.

You can leave the S mark in the window and adjust the firing by turning the points plate till the light comes on. The plate is adjusted by loosening the two screws holding it and rotating the whole plate. The engine turns clockwise in operation. To retard timing the plate is turned in the same direction, clockwise. To advance timing turn the plate counter clockwise.

After you have set the static timing and tightened the screws double check it. You will probably have to do it again. Tightening the screws often changes the setting. Using the S in the window method will not be exactly the same as rotating the engine method. Use the rotating the engine, the light comes on when the S is in the middle of the window, as your final check. It is possible and desirable to have the engine static timing work exactly as described but if it is off by 1 or 2 degrees it will probably still work. We are still going to use the timing light as the final method of timing the engine.

If you have gotten this far and those valves aren't too far off and the points aren't burnt up your bike should now start. If it does not start now you are going to have to get some new ignition points. Do not start messing with the carbs again. they are not the problem.

With the Clymer manual, which you have, and these directions this bike should now run. Let us know what happens.
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Old 09-14-2012, 03:52 PM   #142
tete OP
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Well I got the cover off and am now trying to move on to the next. The clymers is good but
I have trouble understanding it. The one onto is the cam
And this little guy is the points I assume.

Altho dirty it does look intact.
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:00 PM   #143
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So this is really the first time you have been under the front cover?
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:04 PM   #144
tete OP
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EDIT: I just saw your post pretty much explaining all this. my bad.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Yep. Noob to the max

I've gone online and looked at several articles regarding points but that's works if you know why you are looking at

Am I to remove the bolt at the center of the points thingy?

Which position do I put the cam?it looks to fit an Allen wrench and has a small slot on the perimeter. Is this the marker? I assume the unit around the cam is the charging system?

Underneath the Bolt and plate with two little springs. Edit; this I imagine As rpm increase the little boomerangs expand?



Feeler gauge (made in china)
I'm going to make a trip to Oriellys for some proper points grease or similiar.
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:36 PM   #145
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You might find points cam grease at O'Rielly's (?) I don't know.

I have been under the assumption that you had put these points in recently. That is apparently not the case. These are old points. You go ahead and try to work on this but I'll tell you right now, you might as well order the new points ASAP. You are going to need them.

Leave the advance mechanism as it is. Do not remove the tiny screw/bolt holding it on. We can see this has been repaired. There is supposed to be a threaded tip to the cam shaft and the advance unit is held on by a nut. This has been at some point in the past broken and the repair applied. They drilled and tapped the end of the cam for the small bolt you see.


It is going to be hard to get that huge feeler gauge in there. Since these are old points leave the gap as it is for now and try to set the static timing. See if the bike will run after that.
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:12 PM   #146
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Edit: too late. Already got in there.
-------------------------------------


Once I saw just how tight the little working space really is my Chinese feeler gauge got replace by this Chinese feeler.

Look like this was replaced at some point Because it really looks new. Hard to tell in this pic.
Bad pic.
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:39 PM   #147
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OK, the little feeler will work. The problem is that the points develop a hill on one side and a valley on the other so it is impossible to set the gap because they are not flat. Maybe you got lucky. Move on to static timing and see if it will run.

Order the new points ASAP. You will need them. Or do you have a local dealer where you buy Airhead parts?

Yes the boomerang things move out and advance the timing. You can see how it works by moving them by hand and watching the cam under the advance unit rotating. It doesn't move a lot.

You were asking about the timing mark? Rotating the cam? Read what I wrote already but I'll try to make this a little clearer. You are going to set the time the ignition fires. This is called ignition timing. You are setting THE timing. This is set to an exact degree of the turning of the crank shaft. Ignition timing occurs in the combustion chamber when the piston is with in only a coupe of degrees of top dead center. It is standard procedure in these maters that ignition timing is critical to one degree. We will be happy if you learn at this stage to get with in 3 degrees of the target.

For this work you are working on the points plate, the points themselves and the advance unit. All this stuff is under the front engine cover. To see where you are and what is happening you are looking in the timing window at the marks on the flywheel. Do you remember the picture from Ebay yesterday? The one of the flywheel with the numbers on it's edge? That looks exactly like your flywheel except yours does not have those numbers on it. Your flywheel does have all those other marks stamped into it edge. This is what you see in the timing window.
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Old 09-14-2012, 07:09 PM   #148
tete OP
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Ok got the points to what I believe is close. Went rather smooth with the small gauge. Then I did the static adjustment and it seemed on the mark. I was pretty glad to have that happen. I put the plugs bak in now and just have to re-disconnect te neg terminal to put the cover back on. Then I'll try firing it up. See what happens.
...................... It's started!!


Then died as if it has no gas. But it does.

At least it started on its own. And I learned a few things.

-----------------
I've got to call it a night. I'm the only person who buys a bike that was stored in doors and moves it into a barn to work on it. Well a horse stall really. It's outdoors. A bit windy and I have no electricity at my make shift workshop, just this cell phone, so I better clean up and cover the bike till tomorrow morning.

Hopefully I can get this sorted out.

Edit: grammar and spelling.
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Old 09-15-2012, 09:10 AM   #149
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Leave the carburetors alone.

The next thing to check and adjust is the valve settings. Also called valve lash. I use 0.10 for intake and 0.20 for exhaust. There are other numbers that people use. My numbers are in mm.

You will use the OT mark on the flywheel to determine you are on exact Top Dead Center. It works like this. With the valve cover off the left cylinder and both spark plugs removed. With the front cover off again turn the crank via the hex wrench in the alternator bolt. The ignition switch will be off for this entire operation. You may just leave the battery discoed when you are removing the front cover because the battery is not needed at all.

Watch for the intake valve to be closing. You may even see it opening. Keep turning the crank till the intake closes and at this point be looking in the window for the OT mark. It is the OT mark immediately after the intake closes that says the cylinders are at TDC and the one on the left is at the top of it's compression stroke. The left valves are both ready to be adjusted.

After the left cover is replaced. Spin the crank again this time only and exactly 360* till the OT mark is again in the window. Now the right side cover can be removed and the right side valves set.

This may or may not be the solution for why it doesn't stay running. If the bike still dies after a few seconds you can start messing with the carbs. You say everything was cleaned and there are new filters? You may remove the filters if the fuel lines are long enough. You may remove the air horns to watch inside when the bike starts.

I will tell you a short story. About a month ago there was a guy in Virginia with exactly the same symptoms as you have. Then the bike wouldn't start at all. This is a doable distance for me so I drove over there, on my bike of course. I discovered in less than 5 mins that he was out of gas. Put petcocks on reserve and away we both rode.

Have you got plenty of gas in this gas tank?
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Old 09-15-2012, 10:51 AM   #150
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I've followed a guide on these here forums on how to go about this. I turn the rear wheel while in fifth gear till both push rods were loose / spinable and proceeded to adjust the exhaust side. My feeler gauge did not fit. No a smidgen.
So I loosen the nut at the end of the rocker, w a 12mm wrench.
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