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Old 09-15-2012, 12:14 PM   #151
tete OP
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Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Gilbert Az
Oddometer: 348
Ok so valves adjusted, and etc. first try to turn it over and wammo! It's started!

Then died. So I use the carb cleaner for a bump and it started

Sounds sooooooooo much better and feels so much stronger. I could not get to idle but I did take it around the block and it honestly felt like a different bike. I can't believe how strong this bike is. Beastly compared to my 73 honda 500F. Get like it wanted to pop wheelies.

But it won't hold idle or start on its own. If I hold the throttle it will idle at a pretty low rpm. (tachy no worky)

I feel like its getting close tho. Really close

Also all the stuff I have done as had to help. Valves were really tight, timing was off slightly but not much. Now I feel like its in a much better place.

I. Check my cab and both bowls have good gas. Feels like they are right on.

Any ideas?

Butterflies are sealed good.

Maybe the diaphragm? But would it run so good w creased diaphragm and does tha have anything to do with starting it?

I dunno. I'm going to take my 4 yr old to lunch then think about it.

For sure progress. No doubt.
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Old 09-15-2012, 12:28 PM   #152
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So now it will run if you twist the throttle just a little? Raise the idle speed screws. Remember we had you set them at 1 and a 1/2 turns in. Eventually the bike will idle. You now have to adjust the carbs. That's all there is too it I think.

We call it balancing the carbs. The two cylinders have to be in balance and each carrying it's own share of the weight.

After you get it to idle and have balanced the carbs a little you will go back to the timing and set the timing with the strobe light at full advance. Then you will balance the carbs some more. Then check the valves again. Then balance the carbs again, etc, etc. ad infinitum
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Old 09-15-2012, 01:21 PM   #153
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To advance the the timing I don't need to set the points again? Can I start the bike with the front cover off while advance the timing? We're almost there!

-------------------------------------------

If I go ahead and get an electronic ignition installed would it alleviate the setting the timing part over and over? If its something I plan on having anyways?

And if so which would be best for
Leaving points in place inthe event I need them?
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Old 09-15-2012, 02:11 PM   #154
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Some riders want the complete electronic system. You can even get rid of the OEM advance unit and have the advance done electronically. There may be an advantage for you because the advance unit on the cam tip of your bike is held on already by a bolt. This is a repair and it may be just fine or the whole thing could give out on you some day.

The Dyna III which I think you got with the bike eliminates the points but not the advance unit. So this is not really an improvement for you because of the repaired advance.

Most of us I think are running the boosters that keep the points. Yes this has an advantage of being easy to convert back to the stock ignition system and all the parts to do that are already on the bike, you don't have to carry the spare parts for 6 years till some day you need them. The ignition points are still being used with a booster but they don't wear out as fast because they are not having to handle the massive amounts of juice the original system did. Instead of 20,000 Volts going through the points they only have to handle battery voltage of 12 Volts. You still need to learn the finer aspects of points operation, such things as a little bit of grease on the felt to help the rubbing block not wear out prematurely.

I have the Dyna Booster. I think you'll find them for about $60 or $80. Around there. With the booster the points will last virtually forever, maybe, but you should check the timing once a year or so. There is no system that eliminates your duty to check it's workings and settings once in a while. I do this at least once a year. Here's a link to the Dynatek pages that have info on the booster. I don't think you buy it from them but maybe you can;

http://www.dynaonline.com/skins/prod...ikes/boosters/

At this point I guess I'm in favor of keeping the advance unit you have and trying to not mess it up. If the thread in the tip of that cam ever gives out, don't over tighten it, then you will either be replacing the whole cam shaft or converting to full electronic. And using the Dyna Booster will eliminate a lot of the wear and tear of having to mess with it all the time.

Here's the thing. With the stock ignition you will be messing with the points every 5 to 10 K miles. Sometimes more often than other times. With any electronic system, Booster, Dyna III, or crank mounted full electronic, you will be messing with the system once a year to check it and almost never doing anything to it. You will get as much service, less labor and freedom from concern about timing issues with the less than a hundred dollar Booster as you get from the $500 crank mounted ignition.

So this is why I recommend the Booster. Some agree with me some don't of course. There are other brands available. I think the Dyna is just the most common. You can also buy the parts and build one for less than $20 I think. Might not look as cool but it should work.
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Old 09-15-2012, 02:39 PM   #155
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You can start and run the motorcycle with the front cover off. It is best to not do a lot of riding with the front cover off. I was riding my bike in the rain a week ago with the cover off and ended up having to leave it 4 miles from where I live. Notice the points wire is held by the bottom plate screw and the question mark washer. This must be in place but the wire can still become entangled with the advance unit because the rubber hose is not being held by the cover. So watch that you don't lose these pieces and limit running with out the cover to a minimum.

You got the bike running by setting the static timing. This is all we did many years ago to tune our bikes most times. Some riders even then would use a timing light but not all of us. It is mostly considered necessary these days to do the timing light timing at full advance. I think this is because of the demands of poorer fuel and the wear of these machines make it possible for having a much poorer tuned machine if not done this way.

You do not have to set the gap again. Under some circumstances it might become needed but most of the time you are going to set the gap only once or twice in the life of the points. If the rubbing block wears because you didn't put some grease on the felt then you have to set the gap again. But you were lucky this time. Often it is not possible to set the gap on used points and you have to put a new set in to fix the gap. So leave the gap alone this time.

Hook up the timing light and aim at the timing window. Squeeze the trigger. See the light flashing as the S mark goes by. Raise the rpm of the bike with the throttle, it is possible to do this with only yourself but sometimes a helper can be used. At some point before 3000 rpm (I think it's supposed to be 2,500 rpm) The dot for full advance will be in the middle of the window and it will stay there even if the rpm is raised much above the 3000 rpm mark. See the advance unit increases the advance as rpm is increased. But it stops increasing advance at this point and then till red line the ignition will be firing at this full advance point. This is how it is supposed to work and this is what you will see in the timing window.

Adjust the points plate so the timing at full advance is exactly on the dot in the window and goes no higher.

When we had set the timing at idle by the static method it would get the bike running but the timing light will often provide an improvement because timing will not be too much or too little. After you set the full advance check the idle timing with the light and see what it is running on at idle.

Another thing to watch out for is the dreaded double timing issue. There should be only one mark in the window. if it looks like the mark jumps around a little that's normal but if you have two timing marks that's bad.

Report back how far off the static timing was from the full advance timing method. There should be another improvement in running after this issue is done.
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Old 09-15-2012, 03:42 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disston View Post
Some riders want the complete electronic system. You can even get rid of the OEM advance unit and have the advance done electronically. There may be an advantage for you because the advance unit on the cam tip of your bike is held on already by a bolt. This is a repair and it may be just fine or the whole thing could give out on you some day.

The Dyna III which I think you got with the bike eliminates the points but not the advance unit. So this is not really an improvement for you because of the repaired advance.

Most of us I think are running the boosters that keep the points. Yes this has an advantage of being easy to convert back to the stock ignition system and all the parts to do that are already on the bike, you don't have to carry the spare parts for 6 years till some day you need them. The ignition points are still being used with a booster but they don't wear out as fast because they are not having to handle the massive amounts of juice the original system did. Instead of 20,000 Volts going through the points they only have to handle battery voltage of 12 Volts. You still need to learn the finer aspects of points operation, such things as a little bit of grease on the felt to help the rubbing block not wear out prematurely.

I have the Dyna Booster. I think you'll find them for about $60 or $80. Around there. With the booster the points will last virtually forever, maybe, but you should check the timing once a year or so. There is no system that eliminates your duty to check it's workings and settings once in a while. I do this at least once a year. Here's a link to the Dynatek pages that have info on the booster. I don't think you buy it from them but maybe you can;

http://www.dynaonline.com/skins/prod...ikes/boosters/

At this point I guess I'm in favor of keeping the advance unit you have and trying to not mess it up. If the thread in the tip of that cam ever gives out, don't over tighten it, then you will either be replacing the whole cam shaft or converting to full electronic. And using the Dyna Booster will eliminate a lot of the wear and tear of having to mess with it all the time.

Here's the thing. With the stock ignition you will be messing with the points every 5 to 10 K miles. Sometimes more often than other times. With any electronic system, Booster, Dyna III, or crank mounted full electronic, you will be messing with the system once a year to check it and almost never doing anything to it. You will get as much service, less labor and freedom from concern about timing issues with the less than a hundred dollar Booster as you get from the $500 crank mounted ignition.

So this is why I recommend the Booster. Some agree with me some don't of course. There are other brands available. I think the Dyna is just the most common. You can also buy the parts and build one for less than $20 I think. Might not look as cool but it should work.
Perhaps I mislead, I did not get the Dyna III with the bike but was thinking about buying it. My budget is around $200.

One thing to consider is because the bike has not ran, the only timing we have set is the static timing. I didn't have to touch the advance mech when I did so. This time Ill get it running, and idling, I can set the timing with the gun.

I assume I will have to adjust the timing advance / retard mech. Im hesitant to mess with that screw. That could be end game if I screw that up.

Im confused on the points? How does adding a booster save the points. wont they still wear out? wont they still fall out of adjustment here and there?

Is there a way to add an electronic advance only? lol........ seriously tho.

If I bypass points and the cam bolt issue electronically I would prefer that if its my budget.
here is one article I found
http://www.largiader.com/articles/ignition/

BTW for any one looking to adjust their valves here is the walk thru I used.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...=431153&page=9
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Old 09-15-2012, 05:31 PM   #157
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A booster saves the points because it keeps the high voltages used at the spark plugs in the booster unit and away from the points. Yes the rubbing blocks wear some but that is not what shortens their lives. The points burn up from the high voltages and have to be replaced when they no longer can conduct or be adjusted. The tips of the electric contacts on a set of points are coated with Tungsten. A very hard material. Since the advent of electronic ignitions the demand for ignition points has been less and they are using a thinner coat of Tungsten so they often don't last as long these days as they used to.

I think the Dyna III costs almost $300 and that doesn't have electronic advance. To get electronic advance and eliminate the mechanical advance unit will cost in the neighborhood of $500. Maybe you will have different results if you search these items. I had a crank fired ignition with electronic advance several years ago. I went back to the OEM system because the bike had some problem (I forget what that was) but I couldn't diagnose the problem because the ignition was a Black Box and not to be understood. I sold the fancy ignition system to a racer friend of mine. But for some reason he hasn't spoken to me since those days. No idea what happened. I think actually he was not winning too much. The problem with racers is often not the equipment, the problem is that the racer is just not fast enough.

You do not have to take the advance unit off at this point. If you have to replace those points you will. The whole advance unit gets cleaned and greased when put back on. All you really have to do is be careful. It will probably not be a problem. My concern was just to impress you with the fact that you have to be careful with it. Do not over tighten the tiny bolt. That will stay on with only a tiny bit more than finger tight torque.

Other than removal when putting new points on and cleaning and greasing the advance unit there is nothing we do to them.

What settings did you use for the valve lash settings? Intake and Exhaust?
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Old 09-15-2012, 08:00 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disston View Post

What settings did you use for the valve lash settings? Intake and Exhaust?
I used .20mm on the exhaust and .15mm on the intake. a tight .15mm so probably more like .13mm

How about this unit? it seems to include the advance? its more than I wanted to spend but I have a few things to put up in the flea market.

http://www.motoelekt.com/ignition.htm

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Old 09-16-2012, 12:02 AM   #159
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It is modeled on the Bean Can Hall sensor unit for '81 and up ignitions. Won't fit a 1975 machine. To make it fit you would begin by changing the cam shaft, the oil pump would have to be changed to fit the new cam, change the wiring and the coils. There may be more. We sometimes update stuff on the older machines for various reasons. This is not one of them.

I don't think you need to overly obsess about this. You can worry about it if it develops into a problem. It is not a problem now. It may never be a problem. Again, I wanted to point this out and be sure you were careful with this set up.

The addition of a Booster is all you need at this point.

Why don't you take the advance unit off now, before you buy a Booster. Clean and grease it. Go lightly with the grease. A little light oil on the cam shaft. Check it's operation and the condition of those threads drilled in the tip of the cam. You should notice that the advance unit is located on the tip of the cam by a D shape. These are a little loose and the advance unit can be rotated a few degrees. Try to ascertain which way it was rotated so it can be put back later. The timing will have to be checked after you have cleaned the advance unit and put it back on. Just the static or the full advance timing with the light, your choice. Then set the full advance timing with the light.

Once you have set the timing and balanced the carbs the bike should start with out fluid injection with only the use of full enrichner and a little bit of throttle.
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Old 09-16-2012, 08:07 AM   #160
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Which booster? I assume I only need one? Do I need new coils and wires. I'm under the impression I should replace the wires any ways. Please advise. Thanks!
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Old 09-16-2012, 09:18 AM   #161
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What I am trying to suggest, see post #159, is that you take the advance unit off now to examine the threads in the cam tip. See if this repair is usable, clean and reassemble. Notice when you are working with this that the advance unit is located on the cam tip by a D shape. These are always worn a little and the advance unit can be rotated a tiny amount. Usually several degrees. Try to put it back where it was but you will still have to time the engine again. Any time this advance unit is removed or new points are installed the timing will have to be checked again and reset. If you determine that the set up of the advance unit is going to be usable then you can go ahead and buy a Booster. Until you see if this advance unit will be durable there is not much point yet in buying new parts.

We have only worked up to the point of static timing I think. After cleaning and lubing the advance unit you should get all the way to full advance timing.

Does the bike idle yet? How rideable is it?
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Old 09-16-2012, 10:00 AM   #162
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A few things:

First pic: front of the advance unit, dirty, witha little grease on the .....block?
Second pic: this is what I assume you mean by block as it is not entirely round, it's had edges on it. Its looks a bit blue in the pic but this is not the case. I think that is a reflection from the sky. It's has zero descoloration and a small amount of grease.

Third pic: the screw. Barely over hand tightened. The threads in the cam don't look stripped at all or the screw itself. The tip of the screw is fine, for some reason in the pic it looks a little stripped. Not the case. It is consistent from thread to thread. No damage.

Fourth and fifth pic: here is what I am working with. The felt looks good as does everything else. It seems this would have been a good time to do the points gap if I felt it needed it.

It is recommended I do it again?

Thanks
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Old 09-16-2012, 10:12 AM   #163
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I have this small packet of dielectric grease. Which side and how do I apply this on the felt. Can I use a q-tip? Also do I put a small amount of motor oil on the cam? Or grease? I also have white lithium grease a well.

The bike will not start with out help still so I will have to set this back together and then start it. Then re-loosen the screw once I see what side of the hole the "s" mark is at? Sound about right? then I loosen the two screws, one at 12 oclock and one at about 6 oclock, and either turn clock wise to retard it a bit or counter clockwise to advance a bit.

if he S is on the low side I need to turn CC to advance it a bit, if its on the highside then I need to retard it turning it Clockwise.

Can I do this without starting it but simply turning it over?

its easy to ascertain how the advance mech goes on as its had the "D" shape on one end that aligns properly.

Thanks again.

--------------
The more
I dig into the points system the more I am understanding it and is kinda of simple. And I could see where a booster would do fine instead of electronic ignition. At a fraction of the cost.

Assuming mine is ok and I can figure out how to dial it in, then I will be better for knowing how it works and will find a booster will more than suit my needs.

A booster and new cables.
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Old 09-16-2012, 11:03 AM   #164
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That felt is almost worn out but it may last a couple more years. The felt is part of the points plate so if at anytime you run into a good one at a flea market or something you could use a spare. Again it's usable but shows wear. It is possible to operate on it and add a small piece of cloth or something but leave it alone for now. Dab the felt with some grease.

The front of the advance unit shows the D slot. (Don't you think it looks like a D?) Any rust or discoloration here is not a problem. The tiny springs can be changed some day, they are available new. Not for this go around but another day. The last three digits on the front are 012, that is the correct advance unit for your bike and probably the original unit.

The second picture shows the cam of the advance unit. Some look better than yours and some look worse. You are going to use it and it would be nice to clean the rust a little but you do not want to scrub this or otherwise change it's profile. This is the part the rubbing block works on. Best to leave it alone. Light cleaning only.

If you want to take it apart for cleaning and polishing just be careful to not lose any tiny parts. Doesn't really look like something that needs to be done. There is a special grease for lubing the advance units; Bosch Ft1v26 and for the cam it's; Ft1v4 . And there are several others too. We can't even get these sometimes. I tried to buy the Ft1v4 from Capitol Cycle recently, a good source for this item ordinarily, but Tommy was out of stock.

So here's what you can do. Clean the advance unit, if you don't lose any parts, and lube with some thick grease but don't use a lot. If you use too much grease it gets flung off onto the points and burns them up. When you put it back on the tip of the cam and the inside of the advance unit should be clean and lightly oiled or greased. The cam portion rotates.

There are special greases for this stuff but make do with what you have. Just don't use a lot of grease. There is an expert in all things about BMW. We use him a lot. You may already know about this. He can be hard to understand and he's even wordier that I am but you should learn to use the Snowbum's Web pages as part of any search for info on your bike. I'm sending you the link for the title page. If you need me to find the specific article on cam grease and advance units I will but I don't have the time right now. I'll look it up later. We tease the Bum a bit and joke about his style of writing but there is a lot of info here;

http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/

That is the best cam tip repair I have ever seen. It looks great. You will get good service out of this and you don't have to do any serious repairs at this time. Be careful not to over tighten the tiny bolt. It sounds like it was properly drilled, threaded and installed.

So you have made progress. You should now get past the full advance timing, remember it was why we had you buy a timing light several days ago?

You will be best off with a Dyna Booster I think. I gave a link for that several days ago. The bike will run fine with out it for several weeks or months but it will be an improvement. There was another thread here in Airheads just today about a guy having trouble with the electronic conversion. It is really very common. These units cause problems down the road. It's why we recommend the Booster system, so later problems are easier to deal with. A win/win situation.

The Dyna III may be less maintenance when it's working but if it's not working it's a big pain. There is one situation that a Dyna III may make sense to me. That is the cure for a double timing image. Since the Dyna III has two magnetic pick ups, they can be set separate to cure a double timing image.

BTW. You can't adjust the gap with the advance unit removed because the gap is dependent on the cam pushing the rubbing block. There is a special tool for placing on the cam tip to substitute for the advance unit and make this operation easier. They are nice to have but if you get the Booster you will have very little use of this. The tool is not really cheap either considering that you might use it once every 5 years.

I think you want to buy the Booster new or from a known source so don't get a used one on Ebay with out a guarantee.
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Old 09-16-2012, 11:26 AM   #165
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You are learning. It will make more sense as time goes by.

Use static timing to get the bike running. The S mark should be in the window just at the moment the light comes on. When trying to start an Airhead you use the enrichners and a bit of throttle. !/3 to 1/2 throttle. It takes a little practice and each bike is different also.

You set the static timing with the ignition on but the engine not running. You turn the engine with either a hex key in the alternator bolt or the spinning the rear wheel method you learned when you did your valves.

Full advance timing is checked with the engine running. Then you have to stop the engine to make a guestimate on moving the plate, then the engine is run and checked again. When I was much younger I used to be able to set the plate with the engine running but for some reason I have to stop the engine to do this now a days.

You adjust the timing by turning the points plate so the whole thing is changing relation to the position of the points cam. If you want it to go one way and end up turning it the other way just do it again.

That grease you show is Dielectric Grease it is used to coat electric connections to keep moisture out. The name "Dielectric" means it doesn't conduct electricity. So any current flows through the contact. It's been very popular of many years and we learned to use it with the advent of electronic ignition systems so we use it on a lot of stuff now a days. It's used on the spark plug wires where they plug into the coils and where they attach to the plugs, in the plug caps. It's also used for battery connections. I've heard and even read on the Web that some people use this as a lubricant so I guess it works. But it's main purpose was originally to keep out water.
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