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Old 09-03-2012, 11:13 AM   #16
Navin
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They SUCK!!!

But they are roadracing carbs on a dirtbike and to be fair, I found I had a bad reg/rec that COULD have been contributing to the low speed stalling, along with or instead of the float adjustments that I chased around. I found I was onlky getting 12.3 if that at idle so POSSIBLY my brakelights could have caused the problem I had. It works now, I probably spent 4 hours chasing that a half hour at a time. How long will this task take you? I just rode it today again, still working as intended now, thankfully. Pushing that pig was no fun!

Neither here nor there as;

#1. The dirtbike FCRs are well sorted, you would be dealing with the final and perfected end of the R&D development era of a great piece rather than doing what the factories are doing, learning by fire with dirtbike FI.

#2. I just sold a beautiful 39mm for $200, the 41s can be had for very little more or the same price.

#3. It has already been done, in fact there is a guy in Europe I have suggested contacting in the 690 thread iirc, who had converted these for Dakar use and he had all the parts available for sale last year. Timing wheels, CDI, the works. Lukas might even know him, or was it maybe Lukas, I forget. Guy in sweden or Denmark I think???

How much elevation do you expect to really have to deal with in a days ride? I had the pump issues too, and added all the filters and see the clogged injectors guys get despite them, and the high pressure hoses shooting fuel 30' from the bike when they split or strand you when they fall off in the tank. The possible failure points are probably 30 times more than a FCR. Gravity always works. If you need a small low pressure pump and it fails, you can get fuel into a carb to get you out of the woods.

If you want me to look up the guy who had the parts for sale and the knowledge to swap on a carb I'll gladly do it.

There was a reason that even recently one of the top SX/MX teams were running a FCR in place of the OEM FI at the National SX and MX races despite how well that DR650 runs!
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:23 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Navin View Post
They SUCK!!!

But they are roadracing carbs on a dirtbike and to be fair, I found I had a bad reg/rec that COULD have been contributing to the low speed stalling, along with or instead of the float adjustments that I chased around. I found I was onlky getting 12.3 if that at idle so POSSIBLY my brakelights could have caused the problem I had. It works now, I probably spent 4 hours chasing that a half hour at a time. How long will this task take you? I just rode it today again, still working as intended now, thankfully. Pushing that pig was no fun!

Neither here nor there as;

#1. The dirtbike FCRs are well sorted, you would be dealing with the final and perfected end of the R&D development era of a great piece rather than doing what the factories are doing, learning by fire with dirtbike FI.

#2. I just sold a beautiful 39mm for $200, the 41s can be had for very little more or the same price.

#3. It has already been done, in fact there is a guy in Europe I have suggested contacting in the 690 thread iirc, who had converted these for Dakar use and he had all the parts available for sale last year. Timing wheels, CDI, the works. Lukas might even know him, or was it maybe Lukas, I forget. Guy in sweden or Denmark I think???

How much elevation do you expect to really have to deal with in a days ride? I had the pump issues too, and added all the filters and see the clogged injectors guys get despite them, and the high pressure hoses shooting fuel 30' from the bike when they split or strand you when they fall off in the tank. The possible failure points are probably 30 times more than a FCR. Gravity always works. If you need a small low pressure pump and it fails, you can get fuel into a carb to get you out of the woods.

If you want me to look up the guy who had the parts for sale and the knowledge to swap on a carb I'll gladly do it.

There was a reason that even recently one of the top SX/MX teams were running a FCR in place of the OEM FI at the National SX and MX races despite how well that DR650 runs!
If there is one thing I've learned in my short life, people don't like change. When cars went FI, people had the same good cry about it. I've been working on fuel injected rally cars for going on 15 years and they've been very reliable. I would never tell the crew chief to put carbs on an open class EVOX after a mechanical problem popped up, he would hit me All the millions of trucks on the road, driving to very remote areas every day, all day....
I don't base my decisions on what a bunch of flat brims do, seriously

Trying to convince you is a waste of time though. Enjoy your carbs, have fun syncing them and pulling out clogged jets, have fun re-jetting for colder weather and different altitudes. Different strokes for different folks is all.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:37 AM   #18
Navin
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I wasn't trying to fight with you here, and I LOVE change, thats why I bought the 570 and why my 530 has CC forks and why I embraced the PDS and rode on unpopular WP conventional forks in 2000 that worked better than the previous upside down jobs against the popular opinions and sales charts, why I raced a DRZ400 in MX, why I own a SE950! All different and plenty of "change"! It has nothing to do with "change".

I have tried FI on my dirtbike. When it works it is great/fine. I can ride my carbed 530 with a 41mm back to back with my son's 570. I prefer to have less worries and don't see the performance gap that FI provides, especially for the added complexity, the wires, the pump, the filters, the pressures, the fuses and the tiny injector orifice.

I don't need to sync my single cylinder FCR, I have yet to have a clogged jet in the last 15 years of 4t single cylinder race bikes and cold weather jetting takes me 15-20 minutes to swap to if I even bother.

I hope you get it done easily and it serves you well forever bud! Best of luck with it and enjoy the process and results!
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:43 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Navin View Post
I wasn't trying to fight with you here, and I LOVE change, thats why I bought the 570 and why my 530 has CC forks and why I embraced the PDS and rode on unpopular WP conventional forks in 2000 that worked better than the previous upside down jobs against the popular opinions and sales charts, why I raced a DRZ400 in MX, why I own a SE950! All different and plenty of "change"! It has nothing to do with "change".

I have tried FI on my dirtbike. When it works it is great/fine. I can ride my carbed 530 with a 41mm back to back with my son's 570. I prefer to have less worries and don't see the performance gap that FI provides, especially for the added complexity, the wires, the pump, the filters, the pressures, the fuses and the tiny injector orifice.

I hope you get it done easily and it serves you well forever bud! Best of luck with it and enjoy the process and results!
It's easier to convert a fuel injected bike to fuel injection honestly It's getting a new wiring harness, which it needs anyway and I'm simplifying the system to a very large extent. The components are usually very rugged, micro chips don't fail very often anymore and the fuel filter I'm using will filter everything, it's a full size car filter KTM may have a tough time getting FI right but all the other OEM's seem to be doing just fine. The YZ450 for example seems to be doing well but Yamaha has a lot more experience with I than KTM it seems.

The conversion will work and it will be 100% better than the KTM system, no question in my mind. I'm sourcing bigger injectors right now actually, going bigger. Bigger holes, less plugging and I can adjust the duty cycle in the program unlike the KTM mystery box
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:58 AM   #20
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crankshaft, this sounds like a fascinating project, and I'm going to follow it for sure. I was curious about your planned placement of the battery, ECU, and electrics behind the radiator as you described. Are you concerned about any excess heat on the electrical components, especially the ECU?

I'm no FI expert, but I've stumbled around enough with carbs and FI systems on my own vehicles to be dangerous...LOL! Like you I believe FI is an awesome system, and when done properly it's almost sex. I converted my old '89 full size GMC Jimmy (basically K-5 Blazer) from the OEM throttle body to an Edelbrock multiport FI and absolutely loved it. Good luck...this should be fun to follow.
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:33 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by crankshaft View Post
It's easier to convert a fuel injected bike to fuel injection honestly It's getting a new wiring harness, which it needs anyway and I'm simplifying the system to a very large extent. The components are usually very rugged, micro chips don't fail very often anymore and the fuel filter I'm using will filter everything, it's a full size car filter KTM may have a tough time getting FI right but all the other OEM's seem to be doing just fine. The YZ450 for example seems to be doing well but Yamaha has a lot more experience with I than KTM it seems.

The conversion will work and it will be 100% better than the KTM system, no question in my mind. I'm sourcing bigger injectors right now actually, going bigger. Bigger holes, less plugging and I can adjust the duty cycle in the program unlike the KTM mystery box

I don't doubt that but every little setback you hit you'll be thinking "THAT F*@K!^G NAVIN!!! somebody get me a carburator!!!!"
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Old 09-03-2012, 01:08 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by TNC View Post
crankshaft, this sounds like a fascinating project, and I'm going to follow it for sure. I was curious about your planned placement of the battery, ECU, and electrics behind the radiator as you described. Are you concerned about any excess heat on the electrical components, especially the ECU?

I'm no FI expert, but I've stumbled around enough with carbs and FI systems on my own vehicles to be dangerous...LOL! Like you I believe FI is an awesome system, and when done properly it's almost sex. I converted my old '89 full size GMC Jimmy (basically K-5 Blazer) from the OEM throttle body to an Edelbrock multiport FI and absolutely loved it. Good luck...this should be fun to follow.
Good questions TNC, here is a quote from Anti Gravity...
Quote:
6) NOT DAMAGED BY VIBRATION or HEAT- This is an extremely important point… Lead batteries are damaged by vibration and heat, it is one of the causes of early failure in lead/acid batteries. If you have a performance bike or high vibration vehicle like a large twin the effect is more pronounced. Antigravity Batteries are not effected by vibration!
The Micro squirt is rated for 185 degrees F, which is pretty damn hot and I don't expect that to ever happen in the location I'm shooting for. I plan on using some insulation blanket on the bank side of the mounting plate to reflect heat away from the ECU and electronics. The unit is shipped water resistant but can be potted to be water proof, which I will do. There are plenty of people using these unit on Jet ski's with no issues.... I think I'm safe

I've done 5 (as I recall) FI systems over the years and I've had very good luck so far. I'm lucky to be around a lot of very talented people that are willing to help me when I need it. Here is one of my projects, my ice racer....



Vanagon with Audi V6...



20V turbo..



A good friend of mine builds rally cars and does hill climbing. He's been the biggest help to me over the years with fabrication and tuning help. Here is a video from the Climb to the clouds race of his last run at the hill. It's long but fun to watch.




I'm pretty fortunate to have such talented people to help me with stuff like this.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:55 PM   #23
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In......

Now if only bobzilla would do the carb build at the same time.
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Old 09-03-2012, 03:39 PM   #24
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In......

Now if only bobzilla would do the carb build at the same time.
That would be cool, a good contrast between good and evil Bob could do it!
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:31 PM   #25
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Fuck that! Im still gonna be riding your coat tails
interested in a harness and the micro system though. either that or external pump and a simplified wiring harness.

I have not really had problems with the software and sensors since you gave me the map. all my problems since have been hardware and or operator error
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:15 AM   #26
Mudguts
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Just an idea for you how about a berg or EXC throttle body ?????
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Old 09-04-2012, 05:54 AM   #27
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Just an idea for you how about a berg or EXC throttle body ?????
been thinking the same thing but finding an injector large enough is the tough part. I have an 1150 GS right hand side throttle body and it has an injector, tps and everything, ready to go. The downsize is that it's slightly smaller than the original t-body. Might work better at lower rpm's? The old Bosch fuel injectors are really cheap, I can but 4 for the price of one 690 injector
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:18 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by crankshaft View Post
been thinking the same thing but finding an injector large enough is the tough part. I have an 1150 GS right hand side throttle body and it has an injector, tps and everything, ready to go. The downsize is that it's slightly smaller than the original t-body. Might work better at lower rpm's? The old Bosch fuel injectors are really cheap, I can but 4 for the price of one 690 injector
Custom injector? http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/custom-fuel-injectors/
I cross referenced the P/N on the 690 injector and it was the same used for the YZ450F. I was attempting to find a cheaper source because it was taking forever to get the part from KTM.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:36 AM   #29
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Custom injector? http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/custom-fuel-injectors/
I cross referenced the P/N on the 690 injector and it was the same used for the YZ450F. I was attempting to find a cheaper source because it was taking forever to get the part from KTM.
Hey Barman, thanks for the tip, I saw those online.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:39 AM   #30
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