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Old 01-05-2013, 10:49 AM   #1921
SAPB
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OK, I'm intrigued, and it's too cold to ride

A123 FAQ: http://hangtimes.com/a123_batteries_for_giants_faq.html

Apparently they are made in Waltham, MA, just like my grandfather's train conductor watch.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:23 AM   #1922
Lost Rider
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While I do fully respect the ingenuity in building your own battery to save a little weight, I for one would never depend on a home made battery on a bike I take into the back country without a kickstart. While it is possible to bump start a FI bike in the perfect conditions, I wouldn't bet my life on all the stars aligning perfectly.
There's far more to a lightweight reliable MC battery than having enough power to crank the engine. The charging and balancing of the battery cells along with other properties not found in consumer single cell batteries will have a lot to do with long term reliability. Your Lithium Ion battery cells are not the same as what's in commercially made powersports batteries, those are LiFePO4, and are quite different. Not to mention all of the cold soldier points your battery has that are subjected to lots of vibration.

A consistent voltage is very important on fuel injected bike as they are very susceptible to any fluctuation, I've spent days trying to track down a bad running engine that would die occasionally, fuel pump/injectors/filters/spark plug/changing gas/etc, turns out to have been a very slightly loose terminal on the battery.
I used to be a factory sponsored RC car racer, and while I'm no engineer I do know I spent a lot of money, effort and time with very precise battery chargers to keep cells very similar to yours operating at full peak. Even then there was a limited life span on Li-Ion batteries that go through peak demand cycles, and forget about it if they are not maintained perfectly.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's in good ADVrider spirit to think outside the box, but I also believe it could be foolish for many folks to slap together something as important as a battery without having a whole lot more data and knowledge of the specific batteries and charging system on the LRP. Having a battery fail could be a matter of life or death, at least for those of us who wander in places far from any help, saving $70 isn't worth the risk to me.

Here's a good thread from a friend of mine who knows a lot more on this subject than I with some very solid info on various MC batteries.

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=770364


Another thread on self made battery packs

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=692962


Search results if you put this code into google for those that want even more info:

site:advrider.com, litium batteries



Despite Joel's findings I still depend on a Shorai in my Husaberg, and probably will put one in the LRP when the OEM battery needs to be replaced. My reasons are mainly not for weight savings though, I'm not a skilled enough rider to feel a couple pound difference, my main thing is capacity and maintenance. When traveling I like to use the bike to charge my camera's and iGadgets, with a Shorai and it's capacity I can charge stuff while in campsite with the bike engine off and not worry about if it will start in the morning. I also travel working for months at a time and don't need to plug in my bikes while I'm away with a Shorai.
I've also traveled in a lot of cold weather with a Shorai, never been stranded. You have to follow their cold weather directions... It's been pretty cold here with frost on the bikes each morning lately, Husa fires right up.
Since reading Joel's findings about the charging system on a BMW effects a Shorai, I check the individual cells in the Shorai on my Husa occasionally, so far that bike seems to keep it charged pretty evenly. All bikes are different and that's my point.
If you do have the proper testing equipment and have done your homework on the cells you're using, please share, I would be most interested knowing more about the charging system on the LRP. With that said, if you just slapped together some random batteries hoping that they will work, let us all know too.
You could be on to something good, maybe I'm just a little too skeptical, only time will tell, reliability would be my first concern, but I go and get LOST often and hate hiking in MC boots. YYMV.
Good luck and keep us posted.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:53 AM   #1923
dangerdawg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MentalGuru View Post
All your controls will fit fine. Mounting a GPS is not a problem for most people since there are many different ways to mount them.


You just have to smarter then a 1st grader.


Use these Cycra inner mounts, Zeta and other make them also. I decided to buy Cycra Pro Bend Triple hand guard front mounts P/N# 165502. My Acerbis Super Moto handguard inserts fit in the bars fine

http://www.motosport.com/dirtbike/CY...LE-CLAMP-MOUNT or http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com...T.ac=SLIsearch




ramz just bought a set of Easton EXP bars for his CRFL and uses them on his WRR also. If you don't believe me ask him...

http://www.rickramsey.net/WR250Rmods.htm#hbar





Ordered a set of these bars behind my wife's back - she's going to kill me, but I couldn't resist. I'm pretty sure that between the Brideport mill and the Clausing lathe in my shop I can make a clamp fit on these bars. Of course it would be easier if the Bridgeport CNC mill wasn't down with servo motor issues, but you muddle through these problems as best you can.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:29 PM   #1924
G19Tony
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MentalGuru View Post
All your controls will fit fine. Mounting a GPS is not a problem for most people since there are many different ways to mount them.


You just have to smarter then a 1st grader.


Use these Cycra inner mounts, Zeta and other make them also. I decided to buy Cycra Pro Bend Triple hand guard front mounts P/N# 165502. My Acerbis Super Moto handguard inserts fit in the bars fine


Thanks for the info. I stand corrected. You seem to be spring loaded to the smartass position. Change in meds perhaps?
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:47 PM   #1925
Krono
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Rider View Post
While I do fully respect the ingenuity in building your own battery to save a little weight, I for one would never depend on a home made battery on a bike I take into the back country without a kickstart. While it is possible to bump start a FI bike in the perfect conditions, I wouldn't bet my life on all the stars aligning perfectly.
There's far more to a lightweight reliable MC battery than having enough power to crank the engine. The charging and balancing of the battery cells along with other properties not found in consumer single cell batteries will have a lot to do with long term reliability. Your Lithium Ion battery cells are not the same as what's in commercially made powersports batteries, those are LiFePO4, and are quite different. Not to mention all of the cold soldier points your battery has that are subjected to lots of vibration.

...

Good luck and keep us posted.
Li-Ion and LiFePo4 are exactly the same ---> check that here at the middle of the page
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...of_lithium_ion
If you want to be fully assured to get "true A123", you can take these
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ll_w_tabs.html
That is the one i had already, but they are 12.99$ (when in basket), and some hve proven the 7.99$ are the same.
You can get them cheaper on Ebay.

The cells you can get at HobbyKing are genuine A123, not chinese copy or recycled, that's guaranteed, and they wont cheat with that
That is probably the same cells used in Antigravity batteries.. You can get 1 instead of making your own, if you're not equiped for that work.
Shorais are different, probably flat cells w/o shield, more prone to puff, leak and burn than the A123, i'm not sure ... but i've seen some issues relative to Shorais here and there on the net that let me suspect ...

I've been in RC helis and planes for years and tested all this stuff extensively, since Nitro to Lithium via NiCad, NiMh and so on ...
While LiPos have to be charged at their nominal capacity (1C, 2C now), you may charge a LiFe at 10x (or 10C), if you have enough power supply : 6 min charging before flying again, no more so many batteries nedded, and I went this way with success.
A123 are good for hundreds of cycles, not like LiPos that are good only for 20-30 3D heli flys.
From my experience too, they dont need any balancing, even if i always put a balancer plug, because my charger have this functionality.

Anyway, I'm not the guinea pig of this concept, as there are many articles and videos on YouTube about this :)
So far, it's working all right. I'll keep you updated if any issue.

L
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Old 01-05-2013, 01:13 PM   #1926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAPB View Post
Also, $32, plus misc. wire, and connectors, glue gun sticks, maybe an hour and a half labor, compared to Anti Gravity $119.99 for the 4-cell. KRONO, I'm assuming from your location you get a lot of cold weather, as would Ramz in Colorado. From what I've researched, cold conditions are not an ideal use this battery type (Shori & Anti Gravity, & Turntech same type?). Brief ride here today, 42 degrees when I went by the bank around noon.
No issue for starting at 0 degree centigrad here.

That's true these accus weaken when cold, but when used, their temp raise and works better.

In this case, you just have to crank 2 -3 time to get them warm and start the engine.

L
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:15 PM   #1927
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Originally Posted by G19Tony View Post
Thanks for the info. I stand corrected. You seem to be spring loaded to the smartass position. Change in meds perhaps?

I was in one of those moods, in pain with an attitude... Sometimes I'm kinda twisted I guess...

I'd guess I on still my rant on after "lesjive's" aka tirebiter post he made to me.

When I read my own posts at times I have a hard time remembering posting what I did...

I just meant there are many different ways to mount your farkles. With some thought just about anything is possible.

If you have any issues post them for input.


At least I did end it singing Kumbaya, not with hate...

Over and out.



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Old 01-05-2013, 02:40 PM   #1928
Lost Rider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krono View Post
Li-Ion and LiFePo4 are exactly the same ---> check that here at the middle of the page
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...of_lithium_ion
If you want to be fully assured to get "true A123", you can take these
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ll_w_tabs.html
That is the one i had already, but they are 12.99$ (when in basket), and some hve proven the 7.99$ are the same.
You can get them cheaper on Ebay.

The cells you can get at HobbyKing are genuine A123, not chinese copy or recycled, that's guaranteed, and they wont cheat with that
That is probably the same cells used in Antigravity batteries.. You can get 1 instead of making your own, if you're not equiped for that work.
Shorais are different, probably flat cells w/o shield, more prone to puff, leak and burn than the A123, i'm not sure ... but i've seen some issues relative to Shorais here and there on the net that let me suspect ...

I've been in RC helis and planes for years and tested all this stuff extensively, since Nitro to Lithium via NiCad, NiMh and so on ...
While LiPos have to be charged at their nominal capacity (1C, 2C now), you may charge a LiFe at 10x (or 10C), if you have enough power supply : 6 min charging before flying again, no more so many batteries nedded, and I went this way with success.
A123 are good for hundreds of cycles, not like LiPos that are good only for 20-30 3D heli flys.
From my experience too, they dont need any balancing, even if i always put a balancer plug, because my charger have this functionality.

Anyway, as im not the guinea pig of this concept, there are many articles and videos on YouTube about this :)
So far, it's working all right. I'll keep you updated if any issue.

L

Thanks for the reply, sounds like you have some experience with this type of battery in the (expensive and cool helicopter) hobby's of yours. It's amazing how much stuff can carry over from RC to MC, though I don't believe that battery performance under much different conditions translates directly - your life isn't at risk when an RC vehicle fails.
From my experience building my own packs for my RC cars, they are pretty reliable but occasionally the soldier points fail or you get a bad cell, but when that happens I just would lose a race, not get stuck in the mountains or deserts somewhere.
I also disagree that Li-Ion and LiFePo4 are exactly the same. There are many types of lithium based batteries used for different applications.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium...sphate_battery


Doesn't matter really though, the battery composition debate is pointless in this context, you are willing to increase your risk of battery failure because you can build your own, I'm not willing to take those same risks because of where we ride. Plus I never thought of YouTube as being a place for in depth scientific research and development.
I see by how you secured the battery to the bike with one little zip-tie it doesn't look like you're doing the same kind of riding we are in the American Southwest, that wouldn't last long in Death Valley or on many of the high speed rough rocky desert trails found here. We all have different styles of riding and needs and there's no wrong or right, and most things MC related are a compromise. I see your battery as a trade of reliability for weight savings. Too many probably's or maybe's in your theories for my taste. That's just my opinion though, and I respect your efforts.
I wish you the best of luck, I truly hope you get years of trouble free riding with your battery plus the satisfaction of making it yourself.
I just wouldn't want someone else to duplicate your work without taking into consideration the risks for whatever type of riding they do, as it's not a widespread proven design like other slightly more costly MC specific lightweight options, regardless if someone has posted something similar on Youtube.







Speaking of Death Valley, I've been getting the LRP ready for her maiden big camping ADVenture we're going on very soon!






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Old 01-05-2013, 03:11 PM   #1929
Krono
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Hey Lost !

I will never be far away of civilisation here, as i dont think i'll find a place where unable to see a house or a road, so reliability dosent have the same priority for me, obviously.

Here twenty km from Geneva




But runs in the mountains here can be tuff too, altrough speed isnt my main concern, more trial like, and the CRFL can go everywere (almost). I tried a Berg like yours a few days ago, and what a blast !!, But she's too high too powerful for the tricky places i use to go

To go back to the batteries, its so light that the zip-tie is overkill here, i guess. And for the little weight-saving, if you know a 10kg part to remove, please tell me ;) Little by little is the only way : i already got rid of blinkers, helmet hoder, tail and so on ..

Drive safe !

L
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:17 PM   #1930
Guerillah
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Got some Zeta handguards installed finally, now my hands don't freeze! Thanks to Brett at srmoto.com for those.

Went exploring, sorry for the same location for all the pics, I am lazy went it comes to getting my camera out of the backpack, I need to mount it on the tank or something!



Sasco by Guerillah, on Flickr


Sasco by Guerillah, on Flickr


Sasco by Guerillah, on Flickr


Sasco by Guerillah, on Flickr


Sasco by Guerillah, on Flickr


Sasco by Guerillah, on Flickr
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:35 PM   #1931
SugarDust
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Rider View Post
....Speaking of Death Valley, I've been getting the LRP ready for her maiden big camping ADVenture we're going on very soon!

Nice - I see that you have the flatland racing rack (I think) - I was considering it, how was the installation? Did you get the radiator guard too?
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:02 PM   #1932
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What are you guys getting for gas mileage ?
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:11 PM   #1933
Lost Rider
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Originally Posted by Krono View Post
Hey Lost !

I will never be far away of civilisation here, as i dont think i'll find a place where unable to see a house or a road, so reliability dosent have the same priority for me, obviously.

Here twenty km from Geneva

But runs in the mountains here can be tuff too, altrough speed isnt my main concern, more trial like, and the CRFL can go everywere (almost). I tried a Berg like yours a few days ago, and what a blast !!, But she's too high too powerful for the tricky places i use to go

To go back to the batteries, its so light that the zip-tie is overkill here, i guess. And for the little weight-saving, if you know a 10kg part to remove, please tell me ;) Little by little is the only way : i already got rid of blinkers, helmet hoder, tail and so on ..

Drive safe !

L


Beautiful place to ride!

I'm glad you're getting what I'm saying, we all have different priorities on our bike for what works for us.

I guess I'm also not realizing how light that little thing is, I know a zip-tie would not hold a Shorai in place.


Cheers.





Awesome photos Guerillah, looks like a great place to ride!





yeah Sugar, it a flatlands rack. Install was easy, well documented instructions and pieces to help drill the holes in the correct place. I took a few photos of the install I'll post up soon.

So far I like the rack, it will prove to be useful when strapping things down to the tail and is very minimal for when there's nothing back there. Lightweight, nice machine work. What's not to like?
Got it from the guys at www.srmoto.com who needed some photos for their website and gave me a good deal in trade.














Quote:
Originally Posted by greygeezer View Post
What are you guys getting for gas mileage ?
I'm averaging 50MPG.

Yesterday I got 109 mile out of a tank, carrying a little extra fuel in a MSR bottle in the new tool tube on the bike I let it run all the way out.... half the miles on a highway @ 70mph, the rest twisty mountain roads and a little gravel. I do have a uncontrollable twitch in my right wrist, a 13T sprocket and aggressive knobby tires though and I'm sure that effects the MPG a little.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:28 PM   #1934
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Anybody carry a pillion on one of these?

I'm thinking of one for the trails in the New Territories but I'll also be carrying the wife on the back at times.

I weigh about 170 lbs, the wife about 140 lbs.

Regards

R
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:33 PM   #1935
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I've ridden with Nancy on the back once, seemed like it would be fine with enough room for us, we're just a little smaller than you. Would get tight if you were trying to carry camping gear too. As long as 70mpg sustained highways speeds weren't needed I don't see why not... 55 mph country road cruising would be fine.
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