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Old 01-23-2013, 11:13 AM   #1606
Adv Grifter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 690R View Post
Looks like it will be a nice bike. I only have one question, why the Steel swing arm?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hudler View Post
Mostly to keep costs down would be my guess. Strength for adventure touring, those bikes can get loaded down pretty good, could be another.
Actually, an Alu swingarm is stiffer than a steel one, but if poorly constructed or cast ... can crack. Steel is tougher and more flexible ... but not necessarily stronger.

BMW can spin this anyway they want ... but the fact is steel swing arms are truly ancient history. Moto cross and MOST dual sport bikes have had Alu swingarms for over 20 years. I've never seen one break ... not to say it's not happened, but I don't think it's common.
I've seen dozens of heavily over loaded KLR's, XR650L's and DR650's, XT600's ... no cracked or broken swing arms that I've seen.

There are other reasons ALL the Oems went to Alu swing arms starting back in the late 70's. Better handling/control is one big reason on a Moto bike. Road racers went the same way. Not only lighter by about half ... the stiffer Alu swingarm gives better rider feedback and means less unsprung weight. All good. I find it hard to believe an Alu swing arm would cost that much more given the scale of production.

Anyone have any feed back from Husqvarna or BMW people with a sound rational for this ?
Not that it's the end of the world ... but my gut says it's a step backwards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddler View Post
The X bikes had a few cases of broken swing arms. Various other bits of cast alloy made the bikes a bit vulnerable. steel = peace of mind

This is the only case were I've seen actual evidence ... but have heard a few stories of breaks on other X bikes. This guy was a Novice rider riding the Barstow -Vegas Dual Sport. He was going some mild whoops at a very moderate pace ... suddenly he found himself on the ground. Low mileage bike, never off road before. (I got this info from the original post which is on ADV somewhere ... sorry don't have the direct link)
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:33 AM   #1607
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The real benefit of a steel swingarm is that a dufus welder like me can weld on it if necessary...
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:30 PM   #1608
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Originally Posted by kawagumby View Post
The real benefit of a steel swingarm is that a dufus welder like me can weld on it if necessary...
Well ... I sort of accept that rational from Triumph when they go with a Steel frame on there new Adventure Tigers ... after all, frames ... and especially sub frames ... do crack from time to time. Triumph claimed their frame could be welded by a local welder in Timbuctoo in case of a crash or cracking from hard use or over loading.
But Triumph swing arms are Alu.

Anyone here ever broken an Alu Swingarm? Any brand?
... or seen one crack or break? Pretty rare, no?
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:37 PM   #1609
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Having a steel swing arm now means that in two years when the mid model update comes out they can add an aluminium arm as a nice visual upgrade and tout all sorts of benefits as reasons for people to trade up.
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:34 PM   #1610
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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
Anyone here ever broken an Alu Swingarm? Any brand?
... or seen one crack or break? Pretty rare, no?
I've cracked alum swingarms on 80's era mx'rs back in the day. Aluminum does stress harden and develops stress risers and cracks where steel wouldn't. Most manufacturers today have the know-how to avoid such design weakness as I haven't seen a broken aluminum swingarm in years - except for that BMW earlier on this post.... guess the Japanese have more savvy in that regard.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:47 PM   #1611
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Scotts Steering Stabilizer For the TR650

I emailed Scotts about the availability of their steering stabilizer for the TR650. They said that they haven't even seen the bike so they don't know if they can make a mount for it.

I would take my bike in to them but it is little far for me.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:38 PM   #1612
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terra and strada the same?

from what I can see the terra and strada are identical, think ill get the strata and slap some heidenaus on it for tubeless benefits then down the road get some spoked wheels made for it if the cast wheels don't hold up. anyone see any possible problems doing that?
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:23 PM   #1613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
Actually, an Alu swingarm is stiffer than a steel one, but if poorly constructed or cast ... can crack. Steel is tougher and more flexible ... but not necessarily stronger.

BMW can spin this anyway they want ... but the fact is steel swing arms are truly ancient history. Moto cross and MOST dual sport bikes have had Alu swingarms for over 20 years. I've never seen one break ... not to say it's not happened, but I don't think it's common.
I've seen dozens of heavily over loaded KLR's, XR650L's and DR650's, XT600's ... no cracked or broken swing arms that I've seen.

There are other reasons ALL the Oems went to Alu swing arms starting back in the late 70's. Better handling/control is one big reason on a Moto bike. Road racers went the same way. Not only lighter by about half ... the stiffer Alu swingarm gives better rider feedback and means less unsprung weight. All good. I find it hard to believe an Alu swing arm would cost that much more given the scale of production.

Anyone have any feed back from Husqvarna or BMW people with a sound rational for this ?
Not that it's the end of the world ... but my gut says it's a step backwards.





This is the only case were I've seen actual evidence ... but have heard a few stories of breaks on other X bikes. This guy was a Novice rider riding the Barstow -Vegas Dual Sport. He was going some mild whoops at a very moderate pace ... suddenly he found himself on the ground. Low mileage bike, never off road before. (I got this info from the original post which is on ADV somewhere ... sorry don't have the direct link)

Steel is immensely stronger that aluminum because its heavier. Its a lot cheaper to make heavy steel swing arms. They could engineer a lightweight steel swing arm but consumers wouldn't buy it because its not pretty silver.
Im pretty sure KLR650 is steel, My KLX650C was light weight steel.

Cheers
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:14 PM   #1614
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Blanket statements on steel vs. aluminum are worthless. You need to specify the alloy, the cross-section, and whether the material is cast or forged. Then you need to specify the design on both ends. Cost of production and machining dwarf the cost of the raw material. You need to provide a lot more information for this discussion to be useful (regarding strength). Lower unsprung mass and adequate stiffness will provide better handling under all conditions.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:16 AM   #1615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryphon12 View Post
Blanket statements on steel vs. aluminum are worthless. You need to specify the alloy, the cross-section, and whether the material is cast or forged. Then you need to specify the design on both ends. Cost of production and machining dwarf the cost of the raw material. You need to provide a lot more information for this discussion to be useful (regarding strength). Lower unsprung mass and adequate stiffness will provide better handling under all conditions.
This. +1
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:02 AM   #1616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryphon12 View Post
Blanket statements on steel vs. aluminum are worthless. You need to specify the alloy, the cross-section, and whether the material is cast or forged. Then you need to specify the design on both ends. Cost of production and machining dwarf the cost of the raw material. You need to provide a lot more information for this discussion to be useful (regarding strength). Lower unsprung mass and adequate stiffness will provide better handling under all conditions.
I disagree, such discussions are not worthless. Blanket statements within the realm of experienced motorcyclists are valid and based on empirical observation. To entertain discussion regarding casting, forging, alloys, etc. at the forum level assumes that we are all experienced engineers and metallurgists - which is purely bogus. Do you have access to the alloys breakdown from any motorcycle manufacturer? Frankly, the evolution of aluminum components for motorcycles has been more an exercise of trial-and-error than design anyway...those alloys and box-sections are a product of experience as much as design intent. Also, in general, the stiffer the aluminum alloy the more susceptible to corrosion - which can be an issue for longevity.

Sure, "Lower unsprung mass...and adequate stiffness will provide better..." we all know that, for Christ's sake. The real question is whether or not steel is still a viable alternative to aluminum in some designs. I think steel is just fine for many applications. As an off-road rider who has owned many and still owns both steel and aluminum-framed bikes, I can tell you the difference in weight is minimal - and is usually measured in a few ounces, not pounds. Further, the larger cross-sections required of aluminum presents a real PITA when attempting to access components for maintenance or repair. I greatly prefer the steel frames because of that - perimeter steel frames seem to work best for me.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:08 PM   #1617
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I didn't mean to imply that steel wasn't still a viable alternative to aluminum for swingarms in modern motorcycles. It certainly is a very viable alternative, and has several advantages as mentioned above (more easily repaired/welded, smaller x-section, etc.). Some of the newer ultra-high-strength steel alloys might even provide the best combination of characteristics for a motorcycle swing arm and/or motorcycle frame, if they weren't so expensive. Maybe we will see them in the future.

I also don't doubt that some motorcycle frame designs are exercises in trial-and-error, especially regarding longevity and durability, which are hard to test in the lab, and in leading-edge racing applications. However, I believe that almost all modern frame and swing-arm components are designed by engineers with both sophisticated computer simulations and mechanical testing rigs for both strength and durability. The ultimate testing, however, is always in the field. No team of engineers can test a product like the market place can.

My original point was perhaps poorly made. I believe that a statement which implies that all steel swing arms are stronger than all aluminum swing arms is not correct. I also don't believe that all aluminum applications are necessarily lighter than all steel applications. And I don't believe that "Steel is immensely stronger than aluminum because its heavier" is an accurate statement either.

I would also tend to agree with you that a perimeter frame design works best for me, too, in most applications. [I especially dislike the lack of a full perimeter frame on bigger bikes like the S-10, F8GS, and Tiger XC.] On a pure street bike, that frame is likely to be aluminum. On a dirt bike or DS bike, it could be either aluminum or steel. My preference is based on the overall design, and not just on the material selected.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:24 AM   #1618
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1W1 View Post
Having a steel swing arm now means that in two years when the mid model update comes out they can add an aluminium arm as a nice visual upgrade and tout all sorts of benefits as reasons for people to trade up.
Ain't that the truth, they might come out with a Terra S with you beaut long travel suspension while the're at it.
Interesting discussion on swing arms. In an earlier photo in this thread I thought the Terra's looked pretty cheap and nasty. The axle end Looks like a bit of angle iron butted onto the end. Would be interesting to know if Husky used any hi-tech steel or design in this, or was it just cheap.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:04 AM   #1619
Adv Grifter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1W1 View Post
Having a steel swing arm now means that in two years when the mid model update comes out they can add an aluminium arm as a nice visual upgrade and tout all sorts of benefits as reasons for people to trade up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddler View Post
Ain't that the truth, they might come out with a Terra S with you beaut long travel suspension while the're at it.
Interesting discussion on swing arms. In an earlier photo in this thread I thought the Terra's looked pretty cheap and nasty. The axle end Looks like a bit of angle iron butted onto the end. Would be interesting to know if Husky used any hi-tech steel or design in this, or was it just cheap.
IMO, that's a valid point. It's always smart marketing strategy to leave room for upgrades on a brand new model. Never give it everything you've got in the first year. The Japanese are masters at this ... just look at the 20 year evolution of the CBR600 as example. As tech improves and becomes more affordable the OEM's will incorporate it on newer models. But they hold back lots of things for that next "NEW" model upgrade.

In any case we all will learn lots about the new Terra/Strada in the next year or so. I'm confident the ADV inmate pioneers here will be putting the
Terra through Hell and doing plenty of tough riding. Kudos!
Miles, Time and Abuse will tell the tale here. Nothing better to know for sure just how tough the little bike is. (My DR650 is getting nervous!)

Can the Chinese made Huskies hold up? BTW, its my understanding that the WHOLE bike is made at the Loncin factory ... with only certain electronic components brought in.

Only the design and prototyping is done in Italy and Germany. Loncin produce more bikes than anyone in the world. I think they can handle it.
BMW is their most important client ... so the bikes HAVE to be good.

They use this same basic engine is several home market models. IMHO, early buyers are sort of Beta testers for BMW. The good news is you've got a warranty. If stuff starts cracking ... you're covered. And if it's endemic ... the NHTSA will get involved and ALL bikes will have to be made right ... warranty or not.

This is an exciting bike. Not over hyped. Reviews are really good. Time to sit back and watch! Go Husky!
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:03 AM   #1620
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There are official Husky photos of the assembly line in an Italian factory. It also looks like the engines are at least part way assembled in Italy too, based on those pictures.
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