Electric output on LC4?

[creeper]

The Trail Tech lights are suppose to draw 13 watts and put out the equivalent of a 76 watt halogen bulb. So says the advert for the helmet mounted version.
Having had the opportunity now to do a stare and compare with illumination from my stock 55s and the HID, I'd say that’s a fair assessment.

[Velocibiker]

Originally Posted by Drif10

Been running 2x55w driving lights hooked to my high beam for 2 years now, with no starting problems. That's 170w, or 14.1 amps. Numbers say it shouldn't work, as per the email above, but it does.

My only guess is that the engineer was being typical per his trade, that is, conservative. Most I've met are. But that's a wag.

Hmmm. True. Pulling 170(+) constant watts exceeds the above stated cruising output power. Based on the above, you wouldn't have anything left over to keep the battery charged....

When you come to a stop or at idle - do the lights dim noticeably? What about when you hit the brake?

Unless you have the extra 110W lit all the time, you obviously are able to keep the battery charged. I take it you've had some extended rides while running those running lights with no ill effects.

I guess it's time to pull out the multi-meter and take some actual readings.

[Earthscape]

This thread is a bit crusty around the edges, but not Aztec Old yet.
Anyone still interested in increasing the electrical output of the 640? I thought the weak output of the 640 was one of it's biggest shortcommings, so I went on a quest to improve it, and I have done it. I don't have exact numbers yet, but I have significantly increased the electrical ouput.
I don't get around to checking every day here, but if anyone is interested in how I did it, I'll put together a report of what I did.

Justin

[txrider]

What a silly question! report away.

[meat popsicle]

Originally Posted by Earthscape

This thread is a bit crusty around the edges, but not Aztec Old yet.
Anyone still interested in increasing the electrical output of the 640? I thought the weak output of the 640 was one of it's biggest shortcommings, so I went on a quest to improve it, and I have done it. I don't have exact numbers yet, but I have significantly increased the electrical ouput.
I don't get around to checking every day here, but if anyone is interested in how I did it, I'll put together a report of what I did.

Justin

what a tease!

[Airhead]

I'm more interested right now in increasing the heat output of the sun in the Northern Latitiudes...but yes, I'm still interested in boosting the output of my LC4...

Tell us how...

[Odysseus]

Thanks for posting that correspondence Meat. I have copied and pasted that and filed it with my LC4 owners manual. Really useful info!

[Earthscape]

A word of warning about this before I get started. The weather here has been miserable and cold, so I haven't been able to put this modification to the torture test yet. Initial results look real good, but I will post an update here when I'm able to do more thorough testing.

That said, I originally started this because the headlights left a lot to be desired. I located and installed a pair of 70 watt bulbs to replace the 55 watt stock bulbs, and this helped, but was barely adequate. Riding with the increased headlight output, heated grips and heated vest really pushed the charging system to the limit, if not beyond it. It's reassuring that the 640 has both electric and kick start.

My LC4 is a 1999 model. I don't think much has changed on the LC4 that would impact what I have here, but I don't know that for sure.

Now, on to the good stuff. I contacted several companies looking for stator rewind services to increase the output of the stock stator, and most answers that I got were along the lines of "we won't rewind it, but the 640 already has one of the most powerful stators for a dirt bike, so why do you need more?". Maybe true, but it's mighty weak for a street bike, so they were of no help. Then I contacted Electrosport, www.electrosport.com (used to be Electrex USA), and they told me they do indeed have a more powerful stator for the 640, although it is not listed anywhere on their web site. Their part number for this stator is now ESG950. It now lists for $154.00 on their web site, including shipping, which is a good bit cheaper than when I bought it. I was originally told the ESG950 made more power and at lower RPM than the stock stator, and that the output was 250 watts, which was 50 to 70 watts more than the stock stator. However, in later conversations, they said the maximum output of the stator was 350 watts. I have an email out to them to clarify what the output is across the RPM range. It is important to note that the ESG950 was not originally designed for the LC4 engine, and so does not have the correct connectors on it. The stator comes with connectors for a Yamaha Raptor, which the KTM obviously isn't. So the only way to connect it is to cut the connector it comes with off, and cut the connector from the KTM stator off and connect the two together. To find it on their web site, look under Yamaha ATVs, or go here




The new stator wires aren't long enough to reach all the way to the stock connector anyway. The new stator also comes with a new pulser coil, which is not compatible with the Adventure, nor is it needed. You'll need some Locktite, preferrably removable type that can set in the presence of oil. It's probably also a good idea to have a spare gasket on hand in case you tear the original getting it off.

The old stator comes out pretty easily. Tank and fairing need to come off because the connector for the stator is under the tank. The oil must be drained (or leaned over to the let), and the right engine side cover removed. I also had to remove the starter to get the old stator wire out and the new wire in. You could do it without removing the starter if you cut the old connector off (leave yourself plenty of wire!) and pulled the wires through without the connector on (you'd also have to feed the new stator wire under the starter before putting the stock connector back on if you did that). But removing the starter is very, very easy. Just two visible bolts, and pull horizontally (toward you). The starter slides right out piece of cake, and goes back in just as easy.



Just rest the starter out of the way temporarily.



The clutch actuation arm is a tight fit above the stator wires and the oil lines. Loosening the bolt and raising the arm on the shaft makes getting the wire out and back in much easier.



The stator is attached to the inside of the cover with hex-head bolts that are secured with removable lock-tite. I was expecting to need an impact wrench to remove it, but it was not necessary. The bolts came out pretty easy.



The new stator bolts right in place, but you need to be careful about routing the wires inside the cover. If they stick out too much, the flywheel will rub on them and cut through. I cut one of the zip ties off the new stator to better align the wire to the grommet. The stock stator has a metal tab that keeps the wires away, the new stator does not. You can see the stock stator tab sticking out in the photo below. In the photo at the top you can see the ESG950 does not have anything like this.



The stock rubber grommet does work, although the new wires have a bit thicker of a jacket so the grommet sticks out a bit before getting squashed by putting the cover back on. Perhaps this will make for an even better seal around the wires, I'll see. The grommets that come with the ESG950 do not work on the LC4.



Don't forget to put the wires through the grommet before putting any connectors on them, or you won't get them through the grommet. I used plain old bullet connectors to make the connection from the new stator to the old stator wire and connector because I wasn't able to find a good quality 3-wire waterproof connector. You can solder them, but that's not a good idea until you know for sure which wire is which.



Once the engine side cover is bolted back in place, run the wire along where the original wire was, under the starter and up along the back of the cylinder head.



The documentation from Electrex says that the 3 stator wires are all the same, and can be connected in any order. I found that this is not true, at least on an LC4. The stator is 3-phase AC, so all three leads do produce the same power pulses, just at different times (or so it seems). The stock stator connector has two of the 3 stator wires coming back out of the connector and going into a second connector. Looking at the wiring diagram, those two wires go to the CDI. You can see the stator connector in the photo below, and it's hard to see, but two of the wires that go into the connector come back out and go to the connector that feeds the CDI.



Naturally, my first try did not result in the correct 2 wires going to the CDI and the bike would not run. A couple more tries changing the 3 wires around and it fired right up. I don't know of any other way to find the correct wires than trial and error since the new stator wires are all the same color. You may be able to compare the coils on the new and old stators and figure out which wires are in the same position on the stator, but I didn't feel like draining the oil back out to check, and the stock wires are difficult to follow in the stator. I tried all 6 possible combinations of connecting the 3 stator wires for fun, and 2 of them worked, the other 4 did not. So you have roughly a 33% chance of getting it right the first time.

At this point I thought I was done, but since I was the gunea pig on this one, I was wrong.. After a ride or two, I noticed that the battery was not charging. I was originally told the stock regulator/rectifier could handle the increased output of the ESG950, but this was the only culprit after some extensive testing. So, some UPS business and a few months later, the news was that the testing Electrosport performed on my stock regulator/rectifier revealed that it indeed was not capable of handling the increased output. Apparently, it works for a short period, and then the voltage drops as it becomes overloaded. Not wanting to throw in the towel being so close to the goal, I ordered an Electrosport regulator/rectifier, part number ESR100 which they said would handle the output of the ESG950. They currently list the ESR100 at $127.50 shipped (but I also see it as $99.00 in a list, so best to check with them; their prices seem to have gone down lately). You can find it here


Just as with the stator, the ESR100 was not originally designed for the LC4, so the connectors on it do not bold right into the LC4 electrical system. So, once again, you'll need to cut the connectors off the original regulator, with plenty of wire, and connect the connector to the ESR100.




The wires get run under the right side panel along the same path as the originals. You'll have to cut a few of the zip ties that hold the wires, and put some new ones on.



At this point it's worth noting that one of the regulator connectors connects to the stator connector. If you wanted to, you could use your own wire and spare your original components wires from hacking. However, you would still have to figure out a way to connect the correct stator wires to the CDI connector. Since I didn't know I needed a new regulator when I put the stator in, I didn't have an opportunity to try it this way.

There is one last problem to solve. Again, since the ESR100 was not designed specifically for the LC4, the bolt holes on it are too deep for the studs on the battery hold-down plate. The stock regulator has recessed panels that allow the bolts to fit down on the studs.



A large portion of the ESR100 is aluminum casing. The electronics are confined to a small square visible on the underside. So, I used a 5 flute, 5/8" countersink bit and a drill to remove enough of the aluminum around the bolt holes to allow the stock nuts to fit down onto the studs. A regular drill bit does not work because it tries to grab too much material from the bolt slots.



After the stud slots are enlarged, the stock nuts can be used to secure the regulator.



When you're done, the final product should look pretty much like it did before you started. If it looks significantly different, you may have done something wrong.



So, after all this, how does it work? Like I said before, I haven't been able to put miles on it yet because of the ridiculous weather here. But from a standstill, with the new stator powering the 70 watt bulbs, it cuts a large, very bright white hole in the dark. Very nice and noticeable improvement. Things don't dim as much as they did at idle any more, and it doesn't take as much RPM to bring everything to full brightness either - just off idle and everything seems to be at full brightness. Of course, these are all subjective measurements; I didn't take any flux measurements for before and after comparisons, and I didn't carefully note stock electrical output at any particular RPM.

Overall, my opinion is that it is a worth-while upgrade if you are, or want to run higher wattage bulbs, additional lighting, heated accessories, or everything. I like knowing that I'm not going to push the electrical system to its limit constantly now. For anyone doing this after me, it's an under $300 upgrade, along with some time. Not the cheapest upgrade, but then the Adventure isn't the cheapest bike either. Around $300 for a minimum increase of 50 watts was good enough for me to try it, and I think it's going to accomplish what I set out to do. I hope someone finds this helpful. I will post some updates as the weather gets better and I have some time to evaluate the upgrade further.

One last disclaimer, I don't work for Electrosport and have no interest in them, financial or otherwise. I was just happy there was someone out there willing to work with me to do what I wanted. Everything here is my experience with these products, and as I said, I have not done extensive testing yet, so it goes without saying that you'll be attempting this at your own risk.

Justin

[Donkey Hotey]

WOW, what a great post and what awesome slething on your part. How the heck did anybody figure out that the Yammie stator fit?

And regarding phase on the CDI: as you figured out, the system is designed to provide a pulse of juice at the correct point in engine rotation so you can kickstart the bike without a battery. Choose the wrong wire and the CDI won't have juice at the right time. I think you knew that but just explaining it for those who might not have figured it out.

[meat popsicle]

earthscape,

persistence is the mutha of all invention - it seems you have proved that. i hope that congratulations are in order. amazing how hard some things are when you own one of the 'red-headed stepchildren' of the M/C world eh?

awating testing... but isn't there some way you can measure the new charging system's output? Fluke on the battery leads?



ps - nice oil temp dipstick. have you ever written down the temps that your dipstick showed vs. the IMO scale? not that the IMOs are reliable...

pps - nice rallye skidplate too. is that the expensive one? worth the scratch?

EDIT: your link to the ESR100 was a duplicate of the stator link; here is the correct one:
http://www.electrosport.com/shopping...od_esr100.html

And their website does indeed say the ESG950 is a 250W output stator; perhaps that changes when used on the LC4? but an extra 100W is a big jump!

[Flanny]

Good job. This in my view was (WAS) the achilles heel of the LC4...It looks like that is a thing of the past!

Excellent!

Originally Posted by meat popsicle

And their website does indeed say the ESG950 is a 250W output stator; perhaps that changes when used on the LC4? but an extra 100W is a big jump!

It could be the KTM flywheel magnets that makes the difference.

Another thing to go even further would be to consider sending the flywheel here...

http://www.trailtech.net/

They can balance flywheels and install "super magnets" that can increase stator output by 50% depending on application.

It would be worth a call to them to see what they think...

[ChrisC]

Great report, looking forward to the final test's outcome.

If it fails to live up to expectations, maybe we could downsize one of these...

[meat popsicle]

Originally Posted by Flanny

... It could be the KTM flywheel magnets that makes the difference.

Another thing to go even further would be to consider sending the flywheel here...

http://www.trailtech.net/

They can balance flywheels and install "super magnets" that can increase stator output by 50% depending on application.

It would be worth a call to them to see what they think...

They didn't list the LC4 flywheel on their site; did you contact them in the past Flanny? If the pricing stays the same it would only run about another $150 to do the flywheel.

What is your take on their claim that a heavier flywheel makes the engine harder to stall and even pull harder in the bottom end - inertia I guess - without sacrificing top end. Back when I was moddifying my 75 RD350 there were folks who lightened flywheels (and balanced I bet) so the engine could rev higher (14,000rpm! ) but I never heard the claims that Trail Tech is making for a heavier one.

[fire_strom]

that post seems pretty (bleeping) index worthy,no?
scott

[meat popsicle]

Originally Posted by fire_strom

that post seems pretty (bleeping) index worthy,no?
scott

No.

I have too many oil threads to review before I get to such impressive examples of investigative and applied research!